Domestic Extension & Electrical Certification

[bongos]

Morning all.

Got a question on behalf of a work colleague who has just had an extension built at his house. His uncle who is a time served industrial spark (40 years) has completed the electrical work which involved installing new lights, a 6mm radial for the cooker/hob and a 2.5mm ring final. These three circuits have all been put on RCBOs on a submain from the existing board.

His uncle has tested and inspected it all fine and sent off the results to the local BCO.

Unfortunately he is having problems getting his completion certificate finalised. He says the local BCO is happy with all the test results but want to know what qualifications his uncle has. He has spoken with his uncle who says he has a part p course and an expired 16th edition. He is not part of a self certification scheme.

This itself doesn't seem right to me as I can't see why he would have even bothered doing a part p course if he only completes industrial work. The work itself was designed during the 16th edition but sounds as if it has been installed to the 17th anyway.

He's pretty sure his uncle does have the 'correct' qualifications to call himself a spark but that he can't be bothered to make some time to try and find all his old certificates. He also says that the BCO appears to be happy with the work and that there are no issues with test results.

Basically what are his options to get the work signed off?

1. As he has already paid a fee to the LBC surely he could still request that they send someone to inspect/test the work as they would do for an extension where someone who wasn't an electrician had completed the work.

2. Get someone else to certify the work (illegal as I understand it)

3. His uncle actually finds his qualifications.

any advice appreciated

 

[ban-all-sheds]

This itself doesn't seem right to me as I can't see why he would have even bothered doing a part p course if he only completes industrial work.

It would also be pretty unusual for a 40-year-time-served industrial spark to look on the "Part P course" (a dreadfully sloppy term - I assume he means the EAL NVQ in Domestic Electrical Installation) with anything other than disdain.

He's pretty sure his uncle does have the 'correct' qualifications to call himself a spark but that he can't be bothered to make some time to try and find all his old certificates.

Then he obviously can't be bothered to make some time to help his nephew out of the situation he's got him into.

He also says that the BCO appears to be happy with the work and that there are no issues with test results.

Clearly they are not happy in all the respects they need to be able to issue the completion certificate...

1. As he has already paid a fee to the LBC surely he could still request that they send someone to inspect/test the work as they would do for an extension where someone who wasn't an electrician had completed the work.

Even if his LABC isn't one of the delinquent ones, and would have inspected and tested themselves, this option is probably lost now as it would not have been the one specified on the application for Building Regulations approval.

2. Get someone else to certify the work (illegal as I understand it)

Illegal, virtually impossible to arrange, and as LABC know what's gone on impossible to get away with.

They might accept a PIR - he'd have to ask them.

3. His uncle actually finds his qualifications.

That would be best, assuming he was honest at the start about what he has, and that they approved him doing the work on that basis.

 

[bongos]

Cheers for the reply Ban.

It's pretty much as I suspected but said I would try and find out for him to be sure. He's already told me that his uncle is pretty unreliable so I don't hold out much hope for him.

The joys of getting work done on the cheap

 

[pbar]

2. Get someone else to certify the work (illegal as I understand it)
Illegal, virtually impossible to arrange, and as LABC know what's gone on impossible to get away with.
.

Actually, that's not illegal I don't think and you can do that.
Although my situation was slightly different, that's what I did, one electrician installed, another Part P'd.
My LABC were happy enough with that, they knew my situation and I discussed this with them at the time.
Your difficulty might be in finding an electrician to do that though. That was the hard bit.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Actually, that's not illegal I don't think and you can do that.

It is illegal for an electrician to state that he did work which he did not do.

Although my situation was slightly different, that's what I did, one electrician installed, another Part P'd.

If the 1st was employed by the 2nd, or both were employed by the same company then your situation was very different, not slightly.

If there was a supervision/direction relationship between the 2nd and the 1st, i.e. the 1st was in effect labouring for the 2nd, then your situation was very different, not slightly.

My LABC were happy enough with that, they knew my situation and I discussed this with them at the time.

That's very different from the situation bongos is in - there is no longer any legitimate way for another electrician to come along and claim that he did the work.

 

[bongos]

Although my situation was slightly different, that's what I did, one electrician installed, another Part P'd.
My LABC were happy enough with that, they knew my situation and I discussed this with them at the time.
Your difficulty might be in finding an electrician to do that though. That was the hard bit.

Well he says that if need be he reckons he could do this as his uncle knows plenty of ther sparks who are self certifiers. It was me who thought that you weren't supposed/allowed to do this

EDIT: Still sounds like he can't!

 

[pbar]

Actually, that's not illegal I don't think and you can do that.

It is illegal for an electrician to state that he did work which he did not do.

Although my situation was slightly different, that's what I did, one electrician installed, another Part P'd.

If the 1st was employed by the 2nd, or both were employed by the same company then your situation was very different, not slightly.

If there was a supervision/direction relationship between the 2nd and the 1st, i.e. the 1st was in effect labouring for the 2nd, then your situation was very different, not slightly.

My LABC were happy enough with that, they knew my situation and I discussed this with them at the time.

That's very different from the situation bongos is in - there is no longer any legitimate way for another electrician to come along and claim that he did the work.

1. I didn't realise another electrician was about to claim he did something which he didn't do. And I didn't see that stated in the original post. Yes, that is illegal I should guess, but another electrician certifying another's work isn't I believe.

2. No, you've assumed incorrectly there, my electricans where not related in any way, totally separate.

3. Again, I didn't think that he was trying to get one guy to claim another's work.

 

[bongos]

I don't think that it's a case of trying to get a different electrician to pass off the work as his own. He is considering getting another electrician to certify the work.

Is this possible?

 

[pbar]

I don't think that it's a case of trying to get a different electrician to pass off the work as his own. He is considering getting another electrician to certify the work.

Is this possible?

That's what I thought. I don't know why BAS jumped in thinking the opposite.

The answer is yes, it is possible.
I know because that's what I had to do.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

How on earth can an electrician legitimately self-certify that work he did complied with the Building Regulations if he didn't do it?

 

[mattylad]

I think that what BAS is trying to say is that although pbar may well have had an electrician do this, it was illegal as the certificate is certifying that the electrician did the work to an acceptable level. To sign the document when you have not done this work is fraud. Hence it will be hard to found someone to do it.

However, given that the uncle is a sparky & has plenty of sparky mates it mnay not be that hard, esp if the signing sparky knows the work well.

However(2), then the LABC are maybe going to start questioning, did he rip it all out & start again? They are also likely to then want to see the qualifications fo the signing sparky.

 

[FingRinal]

Actually, that's not illegal I don't think and you can do that.

It is illegal for an electrician to state that he did work which he did not do.

BAS, your recent reply to such a question was that the electrician should simply note all the things he can't inspect and test as departures.

What's changed?

 

[pbar]

How on earth can an electrician legitimately self-certify that work he did complied with the Building Regulations if he didn't do it?

Well, in my case, he took off every socket, fitting, accessory, switch, etc. and re-fitted them or least checked them. He found and followed every cable run he could, checked the condition and position, either be sight/feel (in the loft), using cable finders (behind plasterboard) and looking at all the many photos I took of the build in progress which I took for future reference, especially the loads I took of the cabling. He checked/re-did all connections in the consumer unit, did all the tests from different locations using the meters/testers (I am no expert here, you'll know about these, I don't), did as much as was possible. He finished anything that needed doing (brown sheathing to signify live on a light switch, sticker on the consumer unit to signify differing wiring colours new & old), he was there nearly all day, worked non stop. Changed some things (added an MCB for the existing alarm to be on it's own, changed labels for the MCB's to show what each one does. He wanted to know everything and left no stone unturned. And at the end he was happy to certify. He was a great guy actually, very meticulous, I consider myself lucky to find him, and will have him back straight away for anything I need doing. My LABC were happy with this, I worked very closely with them throughout the build. They preferred this to a periodic.

My LABC told me this kind of situation happens now and again.
An electrican might disappear.
He might leave the country.
Become ill.
He might not be certified, yet says he was.
The OP might be mis-lead.
The electrican could die.

All of these situations would mean another to Part P.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

BAS, your recent reply to such a question was that the electrician should simply note all the things he can't inspect and test as departures.

What's changed?

Nothing, if what we were talking about here was signing the 3rd part of a multi-signatory EIC, but I believe the issue at hand is certification of compliance with the Building Regulations.

Is it not?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Well, in my case, he took off every socket, fitting, accessory, switch, etc. and re-fitted them or least checked them. He found and followed every cable run he could, checked the condition and position, either be sight/feel (in the loft), using cable finders (behind plasterboard) and looking at all the many photos I took of the build in progress which I took for future reference, especially the loads I took of the cabling. He checked/re-did all connections in the consumer unit, did all the tests from different locations using the meters/testers (I am no expert here, you'll know about these, I don't), did as much as was possible. He finished anything that needed doing (brown sheathing to signify live on a light switch, sticker on the consumer unit to signify differing wiring colours new & old), he was there nearly all day, worked non stop. Changed some things (added an MCB for the existing alarm to be on it's own, changed labels for the MCB's to show what each one does. He wanted to know everything and left no stone unturned. And at the end he was happy to certify.

It doesn't matter how much he did like that - if at the end of the day he signed a piece of paper to say that he had done the installation work, and that it complied with the Building Regulations he lied.

My LABC were happy with this, I worked very closely with them throughout the build. They preferred this to a periodic.

That an LABC should connive with a lie like that is shameful.

And possibly elevates the offence to one of conspiracy.

My LABC told me this kind of situation happens now and again.
An electrican might disappear.
He might leave the country.
Become ill.
He might not be certified, yet says he was.
The OP might be mis-lead.
The electrican could die.

All of these situations would mean another to Part P.

Those are all situations where a 3rd party needs to inspect and test the work, but an LABC should not expect that person to falsify documentation at the end of it.

They should have procedures in place to arrange for a level of inspection and testing for compliance with the Wiring Regulations with which they are happy, but they should not be asking people to break the law.