Double sockets

1995 says that the temperature rise test shall be carried out inside a test cabinet but does not describe how that cabinet is to be constructed or used?
No, it does not specify that the test is carried out within a cabinet. It only defines how the socket-outlet under test is to be mounted.

The terms "standard knockouts" and "grommets" indicate with a high degree of certainty that they're talking about the socket backbox, not the test cabinet.
I agree.

How does the actual text differ from the 1984 version? Does it no longer refer to the temperature stabilising at all?
"The socket-outlet is subjected to the loading given in table 5 for a minimum continuous period of 4h or longer until stability is reached with a maximum duration of 8h, stability being taken as less than 1 K rise within 1 h."
or substantially the same as the text you quoted, which is from Part 1.


I think the wording is far more ambiguous than you seem to believe
This is a standard form of words used in many specifications, to protect the product manufacturer against test houses prolonging the test unnecessarily. It is considered to be unambiguous by many people other than me. I suspect that in reality, the thermal mass of a socket-outlet is such that the temperature is unlikely to continue to rise by more than 1 K per hour after 7 hours unless it has already exceeded the maximum allowable temperature.

Cautious Electrical Accessories Ltd could not claim BS 1363 conformity and rate their product at less than 13A, or it wouldn't be a 13A socket and would not therefore conform to BS 1363. However they could use any other rating provided they pass the tests of BS 1363. The standard omits to state that the socket -outlet is not damaged by the temperature rise, only that the temperature is not excessive.
 
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I think the wording is far more ambiguous than you seem to believe
This is a standard form of words used in many specifications, to protect the product manufacturer against test houses prolonging the test unnecessarily.
I agree that a ceiling on test duration is common but what is missing here is a clear statement as to how the test should be interpreted if temperature stability is not seen before that time limit is reached; that's what is ambiguous - or, at least, undefined.
I suspect that in reality, the thermal mass of a socket-outlet is such that the temperature is unlikely to continue to rise by more than 1 K per hour after 7 hours unless it has already exceeded the maximum allowable temperature.
I also strongly suspect that to be the reality, but whether a Standard should be based on a suspicion is another matter!
Cautious Electrical Accessories Ltd could not claim BS 1363 conformity and rate their product at less than 13A, or it wouldn't be a 13A socket and would not therefore conform to BS 1363.
That may well be true, depending upon how the Standard is worded (I haven't read it) - but, as you go on to say:
However they could use any other rating provided they pass the tests of BS 1363.
.. which is what I have been saying (except for my 'aside' about 'even 10A' which, as you say, may not be compliant with the standard).

I still think that, no matter how literally/technically correct the Standard may be, the whole situation is potentially very confusing - particularly to the general public (who are the 'users' who put plugs into sockets). If BS1363 does not allow a single socket to be rated at anything less than 13A (since it then wouldn't be 'a 13A socket'), it is surely a potential source of confusion that they do allow a plate with receptacles for two 13A plugs to be called 'a 13A socket'(presumably on the basis that the total capacity is at least 13A). In effect, when viewed at the level of plugs, the definition of '13A socket' is different for single and double sockets.
The standard omits to state that the socket -outlet is not damaged by the temperature rise, only that the temperature is not excessive.
True, but I rather doubt that any temperature which would pass the test would result in any detectable damage within 8 hours.

Kind Regards, John
 
it is surely a potential source of confusion that they do allow a plate with receptacles for two 13A plugs to be called 'a 13A socket'
But John, taking your argument one stage further, if your sockets are connected via a ring final circuit, protected at 32A, then only 2 of your socket-outlets could be rated at 13A, since the plugging-in of any more 13 A loads would overload the RFC. That's before considering the possibility that the two 13A loads might be at one end of the RFC so one leg of the ring would be carrying most of the current.

To reiterate: each 13 A socket-outlet (set of 3 socket contacts intended to receive one BS 1361 Part 1 plug) is rated at 13A.
BS 1363 Part 2 is silent on the possible need to reduce the rating when more than one outlet is combined in a single plate.
BS 1363 Part 2 requires the temperature rise in normal service to not exceed certain limits, and the test for that is performed using a load of 14 A on one of the outlets and 6A on the other.
Abnormal use, i.e. plugging in two 13A loads to a twin socket-outlet for extended periods might result in overheating. That possibility is not discussed in the product standard. However, BS 7671 (or is it the OSG?) recommends avoidance of that situation by providing dedicated circuits for high-power loads likely to need connection for long periods.
 
it is surely a potential source of confusion that they do allow a plate with receptacles for two 13A plugs to be called 'a 13A socket'
But John, taking your argument one stage further, if your sockets are connected via a ring final circuit, protected at 32A, then only 2 of your socket-outlets could be rated at 13A, since the plugging-in of any more 13 A loads would overload the RFC.
We are not talking about diversity, and what you say again underlines the need for a clear and consistent definition of 'rating'/'rated'. We are talking about the 'rating' (primarily current-carrying/breaking capacity) of a physical socket, and that is no more dependent upon the circuit in which it installed than is the 'rating' (current-carrying capacity) of the cable which comprises that circuit. Diversity obviously represent a hornet's nest for discussion, and I think we would be well advised to keep away from that in this thread :)

I suppose that what I've really been saying, on behalf of the end-users, is that when people aquire a 'double something', they are extremely likely to assume (in the absence of any warning to the contrary) that it functionally the same as the corresponding two 'single somethings' - simply neater, perhaps cheaper etc.

To reiterate: each 13 A socket-outlet (set of 3 socket contacts intended to receive one BS 1361 Part 1 plug) is rated at 13A.
BS 1363 Part 2 is silent on the possible need to reduce the rating when more than one outlet is combined in a single plate.
True - but, as has been pointed out to us, what all manufacturers seem to have decided to do is to have "13A" very clearly moulded onto the back of the entire 'unit' of a double socket - and it would be extraordinarily unusual (and 'expected by no-one') for a label such as that to mean anything other than that 13A was the 'rating' of that entire unit (i.e. two 'sets of three'). In other words, despite silence of the Standard, manufacturers have effectively chosen to halve the rating compared with what it would be if the two sockets were separate.
BS 1363 Part 2 requires the temperature rise in normal service to not exceed certain limits, and the test for that is performed using a load of 14 A on one of the outlets and 6A on the other.
Abnormal use, i.e. plugging in two 13A loads to a twin socket-outlet for extended periods might result in overheating. That possibility is not discussed in the product standard. However, BS 7671 (or is it the OSG?) recommends avoidance of that situation by providing dedicated circuits for high-power loads likely to need connection for long periods.
I have no disagreement with any of that.

We have not really had any significant discussion about the engineering/physics aspects of all this, and I have to say that I'm very surprised by the implied degree of difference of thermal behaviour between single and double sockets. All single sockets must pass the temperature-rise test at 14A. The implications of the BS1363 test conditions, supplemented by what we have read about MK's testing of their products (even though we don't seem totally sure where that came from!), seems to be that a double socket would not pass the test at much above 20A - certainly not 26A, and even more certainly not 28A (2x14A).

All things being equal, the heat generated by two single plugs/sockets each carrying 13A should be the same as that generated by a 2x13A load on a double socket. Looking at the design of the 'guts' of single and double sockets, I would have thought that the double ones usually have a somewhat greater thermal capacity than that of 2xsingle sockets - which, if all other things were equal, would lead to less temperature rise in the double socket (for same total load as 2xsingle sockets). Counteracting that is that fact that the surface area available for radiation of heat is proportionately less (although not that much less) for a double socket, as is the thermal capacity of the plate itself - both of which would tend to lead to greater temperature rise for a given amount of heat generation. I would have guessed that those two factors would roughly cancel out, leading to similar temperature rises in the two situations - and certainly nothing like the !0A vs. 14A (per 'set of three') difference that we seem to be talking about. Any thoughts about the possible reasons for this degree of apparent difference?

Kind Regards, John
 
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OK - please tell us what you believe the EU supporters claim is a myth, and then show us where that regulation supports what you believe to be the real truth.
 
Sadly holmslaw and Paul_C are interested enough in their febrile fantasies to think that they are of benefit to the readers of an electrical forum, and as I said, I think it is everybody's duty to challenge rubbish spouted by people who don't care if it's true or not.

You may wish to prove Edmund Burke right, but I have a sense of responsibility. If you'd rather this topic wasn't discussed here then have a go at the idiots who introduced it.
 
Oh look - Mr Intelligent Adult with his valuable contributions and willingness to engage in serious debate has woken up.

Can we look forward to another day of your idiotic and juvenile behaviour?
 
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It seems to me that this discussion has failed to note that the accepted name for plugs and sockets conforming to BS 1363 is "13A plug" and "13A socket" and that any BS 1363 socket, whether it is single or part of a multiple unit with a restricted total current, is still a "13A socket". It is not therefore surprising that such a socket is marked "13A" whatever the rated capacity of the total unit. As previously noted, BS 1363-2 defines "socket-outlet" as "an accessory having a set of three socket-contacts ......", it also defines a "multiple socket-outlet" as "a combination of two or more socket-outlets" - so no ambiguity there.

Whatever MK's specs have been in the past, the technical specification for the current Logic Plus range makes it clear that single and double BS 1363 outlets are rated at 13A per "socket outlet" and the triple gang version is rated at 13A total (and is thus equipped with a 13A fuse). (See http://tinyurl.com/4dqxgaf - this is a 1.5 MByte PDF file.) Note, they also make RCD and filtered double outlets which are limited to 13A total, but these are subject to standards other than BS 1363.

Where BS 1363 IS subject to terrible ambiguity is that it allows extension sockets to be manufactured in such a way as to allow the inverted insertion of a plug (earth pin only) which opens the protective shutters and thus puts small children in danger! (See http://tinyurl.com/4k8leju ).
 
It seems to me that this discussion has failed to note that the accepted name for plugs and sockets conforming to BS 1363 is "13A plug" and "13A socket" and that any BS 1363 socket, whether it is single or part of a multiple unit with a restricted total current, is still a "13A socket". It is not therefore surprising that such a socket is marked "13A" whatever the rated capacity of the total unit.
I'm not sure I agree with that last bit. Most sockets have "13A 250V AC" or "13A 250V AC only" marked on their backs. When such information is attached to a product, it almost invariably represents the 'rating' of the product - not the 'name' of the type of product (I agree that "13A socket" is generally taken to define the form).

As previously noted, BS 1363-2 defines "socket-outlet" as "an accessory having a set of three socket-contacts ......", it also defines a "multiple socket-outlet" as "a combination of two or more socket-outlets" - so no ambiguity there.
If that bit about 'multiple socket outlets' has already been mentioned, I can't have taken it in properly - since it is the key to unconfusing a lot of this discussion. In particular, as you go on to say:
.....the technical specification for the current Logic Plus range makes it clear that single and double BS 1363 outlets are rated at 13A per "socket outlet" and the triple gang version is rated at 13A total ....
We have noted that previously, but it did not really help much, because of disagreements about the definition of 'socket outlet'. Given the BS1363 definition you mention above, this presumably means that the MK logic plus dual sockets are, indeed, rated at 2x13A (i.e. 26A total).

If that is the case, that (possibly old) MK test data which allegedly came from an MK catalogue presumably is no longer up-to-date (and/or does not apply to Logic Plus), since it indicates the risk of potentially serious damage with total loads well under 26A.
Where BS 1363 IS subject to terrible ambiguity is that it allows extension sockets to be manufactured in such a way as to allow the inverted insertion of a plug (earth pin only) which opens the protective shutters and thus puts small children in danger!
Yes, I'm aware of that problem; I'm not sure that I would call this an ambiguity in the Standard - more like a diabolical error or oversight!

Kind Regards, John
 
1995 says that the temperature rise test shall be carried out inside a test cabinet but does not describe how that cabinet is to be constructed or used?
No, it does not specify that the test is carried out within a cabinet.
So the later version has a significantly diluted test.
 

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