Electrical extension length limit

[JohnW2]

If those are the numbers, 3 and 5% I would use those ...

Fair enough - it's entirely up to you how you want to comply with the regs.

The regs end at the socket.

Not necessarily. You seem to like working to (non mandatory) guidelines in relation to regulations - so, if you would like to work to "Approved Document P", which is the Secretary of State's guidance on how to comply with Part P of the Building regulations (i.e. 'the law'), which says:

Installing fixed electrical equipment is within the scope of Part P, even if the connection is via a standard 13A plug and socket ...

 

[JohnW2]

Duplicate post deleted

 

[JohnW2]

This opens up another tangent which has caught many out. I would treat an extension lead as fixed wiring if it is fixed in place or appears to be fixed. If the cable passes through a hole which is too small for the plug or socket to fit through then I would deem it fixed.

Indeed - but the absence of any explicit definitions will always give rise to uncertainty, discussion and debate. However, see what I've just posted about Approved Doc P which, although not mandatory, is implying that the authors of the Building Regs did not intend that the requirement to comply with Part P necessarily stopped at a socket.

If everything plugged in were to be excluded from the fixed description we would see installations consisting of a cutout, meter, maybe a fuse and a large socket. Then the rest of the house would be exempt from regs.

Such things have been suggested, here and elsewhere! However, your views on these matters are clearly sensible.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

I have in my wife's craft room put two screws in her table and used the slotted holes in the extension leads to fix it, same in the living room a set of 6 sockets are fixed, both rooms no real problems, but kitchen if I do the same then £100 plus vat fee last time I looked to register it, don't think anyone would actually tell the council, not even sure if a scheme member would bother registering the work, and not even sure with key hole slots it is even considered as fixed?

Seem to remember from collage days being told screw a picture to the wall not a fixture but nail it and it is, not sure on that as most kitchens today you fix the hangers then hang the cupboard off them, so would mean the kitchen is not fixed, and in Germany it is common when selling a house to take the kitchen with you.

I do think it is a problem with testing where installation tester does not test it and neither does the guy doing inspection and testing of in service electrical equipment. It is clear that a oven, hob, extractor, hand drier are electrical equipment, but an extension lead which is fixed not so easy to say who's job.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I have the on site guide and the regs. So far I haven't seen anything in the guide that is incorrect.

How would you know?

 

[JohnW2]

I have in my wife's craft room put two screws in her table and used the slotted holes in the extension leads to fix it, same in the living room a set of 6 sockets are fixed, both rooms no real problems, but kitchen if I do the same then £100 plus vat fee last time I looked to register it ...

That's only true (in Wales, obviously not relevant in England) if you choose to regard 'loosely attaching' an extension lead in that fashion as making it 'part of the fixed wiring', and I suspect that many wouldn't.

What if you just 'sat' the extension in a couple of open-topped brackets from which you could 'lift it out' if you wanted?

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

Pre-assembled does not require registering so no real problem with ready made.

 

[SUNRAY]

I have in my wife's craft room put two screws in her table and used the slotted holes in the extension leads to fix it, same in the living room a set of 6 sockets are fixed, both rooms no real problems, but kitchen if I do the same then £100 plus vat fee last time I looked to register it, don't think anyone would actually tell the council, not even sure if a scheme member would bother registering the work, and not even sure with key hole slots it is even considered as fixed?

Seem to remember from collage days being told screw a picture to the wall not a fixture but nail it and it is, not sure on that as most kitchens today you fix the hangers then hang the cupboard off them, so would mean the kitchen is not fixed, and in Germany it is common when selling a house to take the kitchen with you.

I do think it is a problem with testing where installation tester does not test it and neither does the guy doing inspection and testing of in service electrical equipment. It is clear that a oven, hob, extractor, hand drier are electrical equipment, but an extension lead which is fixed not so easy to say who's job.

fixed to a freestanding table I'd not class as fixed wir ing. But screwed to a wall is a different matter. What would you class a CH boiler connected via a 13A plug insted of a FCU?

Nails and screws irrelevant.

Pre-assembled does not require registering so no real problem with ready made.

It wouldn't occur to me to treat a commercially made lead any differently to one I made myself.

I have a problem with AmDram in a church hall where the church insist the stage lighting is tested prior to the show(s) by their nominated electrician. He treats any fitted cables as 'fitted' of which there are currently 33, these are either surface or flush mounted sockets and a plug at the dimmer location and wired with flex, there are also some sockets hanging from trunking on the false ceiling. However he refuses to include these when he does his EICR as they are not connected directly to the mains.

Any loose cables are treated as 'PAT' just like the light fittings. Fixed circuits cost us twice as much as an extension lead despite the fact it my be in the same location.

 

[ericmark]

Blagdon made some outside electrics designed to get around the law, everything plugged in, if you buy kitchen units with the electrics included which simply plug in then again it seems it gets around the law as they are type tested. In real terms the registering of work is simply a tax, that became very apparent when I applied for replacement certificates, if when selling a house the solicitor for people buying the house gets the certificates from the LABC then clearly the work has been registered and tested to the required standard, but if the solicitor gets the certificates from the seller it means nothing, there is nothing to say this completion certificate relates to insulation certificate xxxxxx held by LABC as they simply don't hold it, so once you have one completion certificate you can write out an installation certificate saying what ever you want, which it seems happened with this house, we were given certificates for wiring as being for whole house, and it seems they only related to part of the house.

As my son pointed out, he kept records on his PC, once it was replaced, most were lost, of course the same applies to paper records, flood damage can mean they are lost, I am not talking about dumping records just simply destroyed because of an accident be it a hard drive crashing or flood damage, whole idea of registering the work is the LABC holds the record, fact they don't means they are nothing more than a tax.

 

[ajohn]

I think the Part P past the plug could relate to extension leads that end with a socket fastened to the wall but has to be somewhat woolly due to what people may plug into an extension lead. There are loads of things plugged into fixed sockets here that do not need to meet Part P.

I would have thought there would be a separate standard for extension leads but then comes cassette types that will only carry 13amps fully unwound. In my youth I used one with an ark welder and managed to get all of the unwound cable to stick together. It took several hours and could still be pulled out with difficulty. Our kitchen was run on extension leads for a while when we moved in. 2.5mm cable off a 4mm radial. Lots of people use short extensions with multiple sockets on the end along with a 13amp fuse. In that respect they comply as did my extension leads. Cable sizes used may be limited by the plug.

Memory told me 6% drop was for lights. As resistance sets this meeting it could cause all other resistance based aspect to pass. That's assuming they have tied it all together rather than just dreamed up some number. I haven't looked at what the tests need to pass in this respect.

 

[JohnW2]

... Memory told me 6% drop was for lights. As resistance sets this meeting it could cause all other resistance based aspect to pass. That's assuming they have tied it all together rather than just dreamed up some number.

As I said, the guideline 'number' for lighting circuits is 3%, but that is obviously totally arbitrary.

As I'm always saying, to talk about VD within an installation (and 'limits' thereof) is really all a bit silly given the wide variation of permitted supply voltage. My supply voltage is usually around 244V. I could therefore have a VD of around 6.7% within a lighting circuit before my lights were getting less voltage than would be the case for someone getting the 'nominal' 230V (and having zero VD within their installation), and a VD of around 9.9% before my lights were getting less voltage than would be the case for someone getting 220V (and having zero VD within their installation).

 

[JohnW2]

fixed to a freestanding table I'd not class as fixed wir ing. But screwed to a wall is a different matter.

I would say that that's a fairly sensible viewpoint.

However, to get closer to what eric was talking about, what if, rather than "screwed to a wall" it was 'secured to the wall' by slipping its keyhole slots over the heads of two screws which were themselves "screwed to the wall" - a situation in which one could obviously 'lift it off' (with a bit of wiggling!) 'without the use of a tool' (which seems to be a popular criterion around here!)??

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

I would say that that's a fairly sensible viewpoint.

However, to get closer to what eric was talking about, what if, rather than "screwed to a wall" it was 'secured to the wall' by slipping its keyhole slots over the heads of two screws which were themselves "screwed to the wall" - a situation in which one could obviously 'lift it off' (with a bit of wiggling!) 'without the use of a tool' (which seems to be a popular criterion around here!)??

Kind Regards, John

This is exactly the sort of thing that creates work by one persons inspection and not by anothers.
I'd say that if a socket is attached to a wall then it's attached, if a lamp is hanging from a ceiling then it is attached. I know we all struggle with definitions and regs and at times try to find a workaround but I think straws and grasping is in my mind now.

 

[JohnW2]

I'd say that if a socket is attached to a wall then it's attached, if a lamp is hanging from a ceiling then it is attached. I know we all struggle with definitions and regs and at times try to find a workaround but I think straws and grasping is in my mind now.

I don't think it's as simple as that, and I don't really think that, in this case, it's a case of being pedantic about definitions, since one has to know where to draw the line.

It's all very well to say that "attached to a wall is attached", but one then needs to decide what one means by 'attached' - and, as I said, if it is simply a case of screw heads going into keyhole slots, such as it can be simply 'lifted off' by hand, does that really count as 'attached'? What if it were just sitting on a very shallow 'shelf' (maybe just a bit of batten) with a lip at the front - would that be 'attached'.

... and what about the cable? In relation to the notification system in Wales, eric believes that, in a Welsh kitchen, putting just one clip 'to keep the cable out of the way' would make it 'fixed', and thereby notifiable in Wales - do you agree with that? .. and what if, rather than a clip, it were a bit of double sided tape or BluTack that was holding the cable to a wall to 'keep the cable out of the way'?

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

I start asking myself if this thread has reached 44 posts to find a way around the regs. At the end of the day the regs are basically there for safety and any attached, fitted, fixed, screwed, clipped or any other word which has any sort of similar meaning should be the basis for bringing something into the 'fixed regs'

Agreed this is a very grey area but one which I've regularly encountered in various guises, unfortunately that often goes hand in hand with botched.

I helped with a panto at a church hall a few years back and found someone had added lighting into a loft space by drilling holes through the rafters the full length of the building and threading T&E through, every 10ft or so the T&E was looped in and out of a cordgrip lampholder. This was terminated in a 5A plug and an extension lead (13A to 5A) with 13A fuse completed the system. The caretaker happily admitted they saved costs by not having to have it inspected. The store room 'out the back' was handled the same way, albeit 2 fluo lights wired to a good standard with stuffing glands etc but still on a 5A plug.

Let's do it right and stop trying to find loopholes.