Electrician spot light question

[bloydie]

Hi,

I have been having my house refurbished and was looking for some electrical advice. I have had one builder / kitchen fitter install spot lights in my kitchen (think screwfix ones). Due to the builders being slow with the work I hired another electrician that I used previously to fit some spotlights in the hallway.

When under the floorboards the electrician noted that the guy who fitted the spotlights done a bit of a crap job. He mentioned that the kitchen ones were not fire rated (i wasn't aware they had to be, i thought this was only for new builds) and should not have been fitted. He also mentioned that the wiring was messy (unlabelled) and that he could not see if it was earthed.

I spoke to the builder/kitchen fitter afterwards. He told me that it was earthed and that if it wasn't my fuse box would trip i.e. it wont allow it.

Now not too sure who to believe I was going to bring the electrician back to the house to fix the lights. I was not sure if he was exagerrating, does anyone have an opinion on this. Suppose to get my carpets fitted soon so have to make my mind up soon.

thanks

 

[chivers67]

I spoke to the builder/kitchen fitter afterwards. He told me that it was earthed and that if it wasn't my fuse box would trip i.e. it wont allow it.

This sounds absolute nonsense just for starters

 

[flameport]

Fire rated - highly unlikely that they need to be.
Unlabelled / messy - not clear what this relates to, but hardly crime of the century.
No earth - poor at best, or could be dangerous depending on whether the fittings actually require one.

 

[securespark]

As does the stuff about needing to fit fire rated.

Ask the guy which regulation or regulations insist that these fittings are fire rated.

Only a certain circs do you need fire rated.

 

[ericmark]

The report here does point out the problems however not really electrical but Part B, C, and E of building regulations and since in kitchen Part P will also be involved.

As a result of Part P the work will need to have been notified to LABC and you should have had both the minor works or installation certificate and the completion certificate to say the council has the other certificate lodged with them and they are satisfied with what it says they have done.

In theory if you have the completion certificate then all should be fine. That was the whole idea of Part P.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Unless, of course, the installer lied on the forms.

 

[SaladFingers]

I think some people prefer fire rated anyway to stop the worst of the heat from rising, especially if the ceiling is insulated.

 

[SaladFingers]

.

As a result of Part P the work will need to have been notified to LABC....

'Waits for BAS and his anal retention'.

 

[ericmark]

I am sceptical over Part P. In theroy I should be able to go to the LABC and view all the reports of work done on my parents house so if I wanted the orignal earth loop impedance to see if things are degrading it should be there. And of course errors assuming paperwork correctly filled in should also be spotted so in the loop impedance recorded for a ring with TN supply was 14.4 ohm alarm bells should ring.

However in reality it seems this does not happen. Large firms can still employ semi-skilled workers to do the bulk of the work and use inspectors who often only check a small proportion of the work so faults can go undetected.

To me Part P was designed to get rid of sole trader electricians or at least make life hard for them. It means sole traders have to decide 90% domestic or leave domestic alone. The fees are so high they need to do many domestic jobs in the year to make it pay so the guy who was mainly commercial with the odd domestic now no longer does domestic.

Result is when things go wrong there is a shortage of domestic electricians as non move from commercial to fill the gap when demand is high. Also finding a domestic guy who has worked with mineral insulated or other mainly commercial things is hard.

This lack of electricians has in practice resulted in more not less DIY or have a go guys and standards in general have dropped as a result. The "it's Part P don't touch" in times of low money does not work. All it means is that records of what was done are never made and complying with Part P is like keeping to speed limit. People only do it when they think they will get caught.

I am sure it also stops people asking questions which makes it even worse.

In this case it was done by a professional so all the Part P requirements should be in place. Except where the manufacturer says otherwise there is a 0.5 meter rule for mounting lights away from inflammable material with will of course include floor boards. Most houses don't have 0.5 meters between ceiling and floor above so to follow the rules one has to buy lamps where the manufacturer says they are suitable.

Although cheap lamps may be same as expensive ones often we have to buy the expensive in order to get the paperwork to show they are suitable. I had this with 2D light fittings had to pay twice the price to have a double insulated sticker on it. The Part P registered guy would not fit it unless so marked. And rightly so.

Reading the report I would guess the kitchen electrician was cutting corners and if he was likely he would not want to leave a paper trail to show he had done the work. So in this case if the completion certificate has been provided I would tend to think the kitchen electrician has done it correct. However if missing then I would kick up a stink.

 

[dhutch]

I was told on my pre-purchase electical survey that the kitchen downlighters where not fire protected and needed to be. The seller actually ended up fitting fire hoods to all eight (badly) in order to get a pass. So it would be intersting to know if this was a waste of his time.

Seems there is so much misundertanding of the regs, and so little the customer can do to dispute it, the trades are frequesntly giving out wrong information, knowingly, or in many cases otherwise, resulting in working being done incorrectly or unessrally.

Dont know what the solution is, but it seems rife.

As does for that matter, crap fittings, products, clients, etc!!!



Daniel

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I think some people prefer fire rated anyway to stop the worst of the heat from rising, especially if the ceiling is insulated.

Message to all - take no notice of this, fire-rated lights do not stop any heat from going anywhere.

 

[ASDAPrice]

I think some people prefer fire rated anyway to stop the worst of the heat from rising, especially if the ceiling is insulated.

Not sure what you mean here, a fire rated fitting is not made to stop the spread of heat.

You only require fire rated fittings if the ceiling they are being fitted into is a genuine fire barrier.

Also, why on earth are you getting the builder/kitchen fitter to install these fittings? Its asking for trouble surely. Do they actually know what they are doing with them sounds unlikley

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I was told on my pre-purchase electical survey that the kitchen downlighters where not fire protected and needed to be. The seller actually ended up fitting fire hoods to all eight (badly) in order to get a pass. So it would be intersting to know if this was a waste of his time.

It probably was.

Seems there is so much misundertanding of the regs, and so little the customer can do to dispute it, the trades are frequesntly giving out wrong information, knowingly, or in many cases otherwise, resulting in working being done incorrectly or unessrally.

Indeed.

Dont know what the solution is, but it seems rife.

I doubt that there is one - the world is full of people too lazy to do anything except accept the lies promulgated by manufacturers with vested interests and/or too thick to understand the regulations which govern their activities.

And, as we can see, who sometimes don't understand what fire-rated lights do.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I think some people prefer fire rated anyway to stop the worst of the heat from rising, especially if the ceiling is insulated.

Not sure what you mean here, a fire rated fitting is not made to stop the spread of heat.

Heat you prat. With all that insulation, sheild from the heat.

I would love, and I really do mean love, you to take hold of a fire-rated light with a halogen lamp in it, which had been on for a while, and tightly clasp the canister in both hands.

The pain from the burns would be a useful lesson to you, and they might stop you using a keyboard for a while, so we would all benefit too.

You clearly have no idea what "fire rated" means, or when and where fire rated lights are needed.

Please stop giving advice - you are no good at it.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I am sceptical over Part P. In theroy I should be able to go to the LABC and view all the reports of work done on my parents house so

Has anyone EVER wanted to do that for a domestic situation?

if I wanted the orignal earth loop impedance to see if things are degrading it should be there. And of course errors assuming paperwork correctly filled in should also be spotted so in the loop impedance recorded for a ring with TN supply was 14.4 ohm alarm bells should ring.

The householder will have the certificates if there are any.

However in reality it seems this does not happen. Large firms can still employ semi-skilled workers to do the bulk of the work and use inspectors who often only check a small proportion of the work so faults can go undetected.

Not part P's fault.

To me Part P was designed to get rid of sole trader electricians or at least make life hard for them. It means sole traders have to decide 90% domestic or leave domestic alone.

Keep tabs on them, maybe.
Or 100% and stop working ???

The fees are so high they need to do many domestic jobs in the year to make it pay so the guy who was mainly commercial with the odd domestic now no longer does domestic.

I don't like paying nearly £500 to them but 20% less after tax allowance leaves £400 - £8 per week plus £2ish per notifiable job.

Result is when things go wrong there is a shortage of domestic electricians as non move from commercial to fill the gap when demand is high.

There are thousands of us.

Also finding a domestic guy who has worked with mineral insulated or other mainly commercial things is hard.

It may be if it were necessary.

This lack of electricians has in practice resulted in more not less DIY or have a go guys and standards in general have dropped as a result. The "it's Part P don't touch" in times of low money does not work. All it means is that records of what was done are never made and complying with Part P is like keeping to speed limit. People only do it when they think they will get caught.

Evidence ?

I am sure it also stops people asking questions which makes it even worse.

I am amazed at the number of questions on here asking things like "Is it legal for me to ...?"

In this case it was done by a professional so all the Part P requirements should be in place. Except where the manufacturer says otherwise there is a 0.5 meter rule for mounting lights away from inflammable material with will of course include floor boards. Most houses don't have 0.5 meters between ceiling and floor above so to follow the rules one has to buy lamps where the manufacturer says they are suitable.

0.5m top clearance ???

Although cheap lamps may be same as expensive ones often we have to buy the expensive in order to get the paperwork to show they are suitable.

Does that not contradict the theme of the post?
Why do you want to fit unsuitable lamps?

I had this with 2D light fittings had to pay twice the price to have a double insulated sticker on it. The Part P registered guy would not fit it unless so marked. And rightly so.