Engine Oil

[DIYspanner]

Have been looking for a couple of weeks for an o.e. quality filter for my Vectra and in two outlets have found the Purflux, but both were around € 15 (
£ 13.50 ) which I found ridiculous. The other outlet ( only three in 30 mile radius up here ) supposedly stocks Mann as well as own brand, but never has mine in stock ( price around € 6 )

It puzzles me greatly how the Purflux outlets were convinced to buy and stock at such anomolous pricing. I'll actually have to talk to the supposed Mann stockist ( Norauto - like Halford's ) and see if they will order one for me. Nothing else to buy at the moment , so postage would be high for one item from the Net.

Have a look at P2C. Their prices are good for Mann filters and the genuine article according to Mann-Hummel UK.
If you want to part match, use the Mann online catalogue!

 

[mointainwalker]

@Celeronmanuk

That's for the UK - I live in France, which costs £5 and an uncertain delivery time. I live in the mountains and some companies just make up nonsense about nobody home when they haven't been within 10 miles of your house. Since I try to minimise my costs when it's not urgent, I'll try asking the bunch who profess to stock it, if they will order it.

Thanks for the tip, though.

 

[sxturbo]

@Celeronmanuk

That's for the UK - I live in France, which costs £5 and an uncertain delivery time. I live in the mountains and some companies just make up nonsense about nobody home when they haven't been within 10 miles of your house. Since I try to minimise my costs when it's not urgent, I'll try asking the bunch who profess to stock it, if they will order it.

Thanks for the tip, though.

http://www.groupautointernational.com/networks

These guys are big in Europe (and UK for that matter) they have loads of outlets in France, they are mostly trade but they sell Bosch sand Wix filters (Wix are now owned by Mann)

 

[mointainwalker]

Mileage doesn't make any difference in the oil that needs to be used.
Manufacturer specifications must be adhered to and subsequent updated passed to the consumer from the manufacturer (this doesn't happen).

I disagree with this. When looking at oils, manufacturers are also going to consider the environment where they are being used. Since I don't believe they will have multiple recommendations for different countries/ambient temperatures, they are going to take the worst case and generalise it. In Europe this will likely be Norway/Finland with regular winter temps of - 20C and peaks of -30C ( there will be worse temperatures but not many people living in those areas ). In order to cope with that, they will recommend 0W. If you live in Guildford and think the occasional -3 C is Arctic, and +4 C much more usual, then I don't believe you need the very expensive and very leak-prone oil. Obviously with that view-point I don't think it's necessary in a car with a good few miles under its tyres.

Another reason why the manufacturers are going for these low-viscosity oils is improved mpg and emissions, which improve the marketability of the vehicle i.e. it's for their benefit, not necessarily technical.

We can only hope that after market filters are made to the manufacturers specification

A forlorn hope John. I'm not sure if it's part of this thread or not, but the other day I was looking at a YT video of someone comparing a Mann filter with another unnamed competitor and the Mann filter had three times the amount of filter -medium.

Edit: I see it was on this thread so you will have seen it, I'm sure.

 

[sxturbo]

I disagree with this. When looking at oils, manufacturers are also going to consider the environment where they are being used. Since I don't believe they will have multiple recommendations for different countries/ambient temperatures, they are going to take the worst case and generalise it. In Europe this will likely be Norway/Finland with regular winter temps of - 20C and peaks of -30C ( there will be worse temperatures but not many people living in those areas ). In order to cope with that, they will recommend 0W. If you live in Guildford and think the occasional -3 C is Arctic, and +4 C much more usual, then I don't believe you need the very expensive and very leak-prone oil. Obviously with that view-point I don't think it's necessary in a car with a good few miles under its tyres.

Another reason why the manufacturers are going for these low-viscosity oils is improved mpg and emissions, which improve the marketability of the vehicle i.e. it's for their benefit, not necessarily technical.



A forlorn hope John. I'm not sure if it's part of this thread or not, but the other day I was looking at a YT video of someone comparing a Mann filter with another unnamed competitor and the Mann filter had three times the amount of filter -medium.

Edit: I see it was on this thread so you will have seen it, I'm sure.

They do have different recommendations for different climates and countries.

They also provide a range of oils that can be used, but have a "preferred/recommended specification"

In the UK and Europe due to block exemption rules any carparts that are sold as OEM quality must be at least as good as the original component. Dependent on the manufacturer there can be slight differences in the filter design however the when tested in a laboratory they must prove to perform to the same specifications.

An example, Baldwin filters offer an alternative to racor fuel filters, to get around copyright laws the filter is 2/3rds the size of the original with the body adapted to enable fitment in place of the original. It was proven in a side by side rest that the Baldwin equivalent filtered better than the Racor.

The point of the above is more that you can't base things on a non scientific based video from YouTube (also the competitive filter brand was not disclosed, so it could have been a cheap Chinese or Turkish copy and it may not have been marketed as OEM quality)

That said, stick to the big brands and you won't ever have problems with quality or longevity and won't cause damage to your engine.

In my industry (industrial and marine engines) I've even seen first hand rubbish direct from the OEM, and have fitted quality aftermarket components in there place.

 

[sxturbo]

Worth a watch too.

For me

Fram junk
Crosland junk
TJ junk
Mann good
Wix good
Bosch good
Blueprint good

Just so people know, the Fram filters in Europe are very different to those sold in the USA, Sogeffi licenses the brand for exclusive use in Europe, Sogeffi makes the filters in their own factories, these same filters are sold as purflux which although is used for the aftermarket also, is predominantly for the OEM market.

I don't have any affiliation with any of these brands but I do like to sound the horn of truth, the internet is full of opinion which is passed off as fact and can have unnecessary repercussions.

 

[JohnD]

unnamed competitor

well that's no use then.

 

[mointainwalker]

They do have different recommendations for different climates and countries.

".

Since you can't get lower viscosity than 0W and this is quoted for N Finland and S France with probably 30C difference on base winter-temperatures used, I think my point stands.

[QUOTE="sxturbo, post: 4719366, member: 213649"
In the UK and Europe due to block exemption rules any carparts that are sold as OEM quality must be at least as good as the original component.

.[/QUOTE]

Please provide a link to this ruling.

There is a very simple reason why I believe this can't exist, and that is because manufacturers don't - and never will -publish their specifications, so no other entity can claim to meet them. One powerful reason they don't do this is pricing: if they published their spec, then someone could provably meet it and then say ( with justification ) just as good as the genuine VW part but 50% cheaper .

I recall a VW advert years ago where they published a list of spare part prices( to show how competitive they were ), which included one component - a piston-ring - that my company/employer supplied to them. Our price to them - obviously in 10 000 batches - was 6p or 7p each: the price in the ad- was about £1.30. That would have been more difficult if another supplier could have said ....." meets VW spec but easier on your pocket ". Of course, I don't think there would be many other producers who would independently run a Golf Turbo Diesel on a dynamometer - cycling for 1 000 hours ( as just part of the testing-cycle) - to meet the VW clearance procedure.

OEM quality is an unspecified - and unspecifiable - term that has meaning for most people interested in car/engine-repair, but has ( I'm sure ) no legal basis or definition. The furthest that reputable companies would go is to say "supplier to numerous o.e. manufactirers " without naming them, as they can get nasty about that.

"non scientific based video from YouTube (also the competitive filter brand was not disclosed, so it could have been a cheap Chinese or Turkish copy and it may not have been marketed as OEM quality) "

In that case look at the American video which names brands. As I have said "oe quality "is as meaningless as "top quality " " environmentally neutral " "non-fattening".

 

[sxturbo]

Since you can't get lower viscosity than 0W and this is quoted for N Finland and S France with probably 30C difference on base winter-temperatures used, I think my point stands.

[QUOTE="sxturbo, post: 4719366, member: 213649"
In the UK and Europe due to block exemption rules any carparts that are sold as OEM quality must be at least as good as the original component.

.

Please provide a link to this ruling.

There is a very simple reason why I believe this can't exist, and that is because manufacturers don't - and never will -publish their specifications, so no other entity can claim to meet them. One powerful reason they don't do this is pricing: if they published their spec, then someone could provably meet it and then say ( with justification ) just as good as the genuine VW part but 50% cheaper .

I recall a VW advert years ago where they published a list of spare part prices( to show how competitive they were ), which included one component - a piston-ring - that my company/employer supplied to them. Our price to them - obviously in 10 000 batches - was 6p or 7p each: the price in the ad- was about £1.30. That would have been more difficult if another supplier could have said ....." meets VW spec but easier on your pocket ". Of course, I don't think there would be many other producers who would independently run a Golf Turbo Diesel on a dynamometer - cycling for 1 000 hours ( as just part of the testing-cycle) - to meet the VW clearance procedure.

OEM quality is an unspecified - and unspecifiable - term that has meaning for most people interested in car/engine-repair, but has ( I'm sure ) no legal basis or definition. The furthest that reputable companies would go is to say "supplier to numerous o.e. manufactirers " without naming them, as they can get nasty about that.[/QUOTE]

Block exemption is a very real thing, I have worked in the industry for 15 years and I can assure you I know what I am on about.

OEM's do not make and design everything, they use partners whom design, develop and produce for them.

It is not difficult to reverse engineer components, it is also not difficult to see OEM design flaws or necessary cost cutting measures and improve and implement it on the reverse engineered component.

As yet there has been no successful law suit against a reputable aftermarket parts suppliers from the OEM.

The information is out there for the block exemption rules, and this allows there to be an automotive aftermarket.

OEM quality does have a specification, if you were to examine the 2 components in a laboratory the after market item must at the very least be equivalent in fit form and function, this includes longevity and metallurgy and anything that may deem an item to be equivalent.

Block exemption is only a European "thing" and so only components sold in Europe with that badge are applicable to the rules.

It's really not a hard concept.

 

[mointainwalker]

They do have different recommendations for different climates and countries.

They also provide a range of oils that can be used, but have a "preferred/recommended specification"

Block exemption is a very real thing, I have worked in the industry for 15 years and I can assure you I know what I am on about.

. Dependent on the manufacturer there can be slight differences in the filter design however the when tested in a laboratory they must prove to perform to the same specifications.

An example, Baldwin filters offer an alternative to racor fuel filters, to get around copyright laws the filter is 2/3rds the size of the original with the body adapted to enable fitment in place of the original. It was proven in a side by side rest that the Baldwin equivalent filtered better than the Racor.

The point of the above is more that you can't base things on a non scientific based video from YouTube (also the competitive filter brand was not disclosed, so it could have been a cheap Chinese or Turkish copy and it may not have been marketed as OEM quality)

That said, stick to the big brands and you won't ever have problems with quality or longevity and won't cause damage to your engine.

In my industry (industrial and marine engines) I've even seen first hand rubbish direct from the OEM, and have fitted quality aftermarket components in there place.

Please provide a link to this ruling.

There is a very simple reason why I believe this can't exist, and that is because manufacturers don't - and never will -publish their specifications, so no other entity can claim to meet them. One powerful reason they don't do this is pricing: if they published their spec, then someone could provably meet it and then say ( with justification ) just as good as the genuine VW part but 50% cheaper .

I recall a VW advert years ago where they published a list of spare part prices( to show how competitive they were ), which included one component - a piston-ring - that my company/employer supplied to them. Our price to them - obviously in 10 000 batches - was 6p or 7p each: the price in the ad- was about £1.30. That would have been more difficult if another supplier could have said ....." meets VW spec but easier on your pocket ". Of course, I don't think there would be many other producers who would independently run a Golf Turbo Diesel on a dynamometer - cycling for 1 000 hours ( as just part of the testing-cycle) - to meet the VW clearance procedure.

OEM quality is an unspecified - and unspecifiable - term that has meaning for most people interested in car/engine-repair, but has ( I'm sure ) no legal basis or definition. The furthest that reputable companies would go is to say "supplier to numerous o.e. manufactirers " without naming them, as they can get nasty about that.

Block exemption is a very real thing, I have worked in the industry for 15 years and I can assure you I know what I am on about.

OEM's do not make and design everything, they use partners whom design, develop and produce for them.

It is not difficult to reverse engineer components, it is also not difficult to see OEM design flaws or necessary cost cutting measures and improve and implement it on the reverse engineered component.

As yet there has been no successful law suit against a reputable aftermarket parts suppliers from the OEM.

The information is out there for the block exemption rules, and this allows there to be an automotive aftermarket.

OEM quality does have a specification, if you were to examine the 2 components in a laboratory the after market item must at the very least be equivalent in fit form and function, this includes longevity and metallurgy and anything that may deem an item to be equivalent.

Block exemption is only a European "thing" and so only components sold in Europe with that badge are applicable to the rules.

It's really not a hard concept.[/QUOTE]

 

[mointainwalker]

I have worked in the industry for 15 years and I can assure you I know what I am on about.

I swoon in admiration and awe at your vast experience. I can't imagine that anybody reading this has such a vast and valuable body of work behind them. I am sure that I - and all the other humble beings reading this - are immensely grateful that you have deigned to devote some of your immensely valuable time to us. The only thing that could possibly increase my burgeoning happiness is if you would please give links to the three items that I have asterisked * ( to make it easier for you ). I may have asked this before ( twice I think ) but you appear to have overlooked it.

OEM quality does have a specification if you were to examine the 2 components in a laboratory the after market item must at the very least be equivalent in fit form and function, and metallurgy and anything that may deem an item to be equivalent.

Nonsense. Once again, show us something to back up your words *. Please also say how - and perhaps more importantly who - is going to run a 1 000 hour engine-test on these components. Is your local Trading Standards going to do it ?

OEM quality does have a specification

OK - tell us where to find it. Once again the best way would be a link. *

 

[Stivino]

^^I'm confused by the above post, I don't know who is replying to who^^

 

[sxturbo]

I swoon in admiration and awe at your vast experience. I can't imagine that anybody reading this has such a vast and valuable body of work behind them. I am sure that I - and all the other humble beings reading this - are immensely grateful that you have deigned to devote some of your immensely valuable time to us. The only thing that could possibly increase my burgeoning happiness is if you would please give links to the three items that I have asterisked * ( to make it easier for you ). I may have asked this before ( twice I think ) but you appear to have overlooked it.



Nonsense. Once again, show us something to back up your words *. Please also say how - and perhaps more importantly who - is going to run a 1 000 hour engine-test on these components. Is your local Trading Standards going to do it ?



OK - tell us where to find it. Once again the best way would be a link. *

Lol

Must be your time of the month so I'll let you off...

 

[mointainwalker]

Must be your time of the month so I'll let you off...

Very generous, however that always was a hallmarks of clowns.

Now what about those links for all your unverified claims ?

 

[mointainwalker]

^I'm confused by the above post, I don't know who is replying to who^^

All the comments in blue were made by the mightily- experienced sxturbo - you know, he of 15 years experience. I don't know why my name has been put in a couple of times.

My comments are the clear, logical intelligent ones !