I am about to replace bathroom ceiling lights, 2 in zone 2, 1 in zone 3, if has been one heck of a job find something "suitable". New lights are IP44's (flush, circular), manufactures fitting instructions say they should are for "wall mounting" only I can't see any reason as to why - tried ringing them can't get through. Anyone any thoughts as to why they shouldn't/can't be fitted to ceiling?
Fit wall lights to ceiling?
- Thread starter TCDIY
- Start date
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As a quess is there something ,like open cable entrys, that may prevent the fitting being ip44 rated when mounted on the ceiling.
It may only conform to ip44 when wall mounted ,for some reason.
Also will the shade still be secure in the ceiling mounted position.
It may only conform to ip44 when wall mounted ,for some reason.
Also will the shade still be secure in the ceiling mounted position.
And where will the heat from the lamp(s) go?
What's so special about your requirements?
Why?
What's so special about your requirements?
Thanks for getting back so quick. Trying to answer question in order asked!
rocky: -
Cable entry is through a rubber grommet, can't see any reason as to why this is any less water tight if mounted on ceiling?
Circular glass shade is screwed into body (rubber washer between) and then additionally secured by a side entry screw (rubber washer fitted) - given all screwd together right it ain't going to fall out!
ban:-
Sorry not quite sure what you mean where will the heat go? Upwards - behind lamp there is a built in a metal mirror reflector, after that heat will go though lamp body up into (insulated) ceiling/roof void, downwards - um! down!
Problem selecting fitting comes about in that bathroom is narrow, only about 1.2 metres from outside of bath to wall - to get a decent spread of light wanted to fit a series of lights (as already wired), therefore two lights fall in zone 2. Roof is flat don't want to fit recessed up into roof void, taking down recessed spots if for no other reason than I am worried these break vapour barrier and will cause condensation on underside of cold roof. hence need flush fit (make good vapour barrier etc.). Add to that want a reasonable light level say 40 watt each light and trying to keep the things down to a reasonable size say 100/120mm - just can't find any!
rocky: -
Cable entry is through a rubber grommet, can't see any reason as to why this is any less water tight if mounted on ceiling?
Circular glass shade is screwed into body (rubber washer between) and then additionally secured by a side entry screw (rubber washer fitted) - given all screwd together right it ain't going to fall out!
ban:-
Sorry not quite sure what you mean where will the heat go? Upwards - behind lamp there is a built in a metal mirror reflector, after that heat will go though lamp body up into (insulated) ceiling/roof void, downwards - um! down!
Problem selecting fitting comes about in that bathroom is narrow, only about 1.2 metres from outside of bath to wall - to get a decent spread of light wanted to fit a series of lights (as already wired), therefore two lights fall in zone 2. Roof is flat don't want to fit recessed up into roof void, taking down recessed spots if for no other reason than I am worried these break vapour barrier and will cause condensation on underside of cold roof. hence need flush fit (make good vapour barrier etc.). Add to that want a reasonable light level say 40 watt each light and trying to keep the things down to a reasonable size say 100/120mm - just can't find any!
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Thanks for that Ban; smallest one on that site is 180mm which is a getting a wee bit big for the room - the ones i've got are 150mm but deeper, as things are I'll have to take them back - guess you don't like the idea of sticking the wall ones on the ceiling?
To pick your brains a bit more - Existing lights are wired with twin and earth, although earth not used - double insulated - but from what I can see there is no secondary bond to any of this light circuit, one is fitted around other stuff in bathroom pipes, shower, bath, towel rail - under the regs. does one have to be fitted when changing light fittings - if so am i allowed to fit one myself?
To pick your brains a bit more - Existing lights are wired with twin and earth, although earth not used - double insulated - but from what I can see there is no secondary bond to any of this light circuit, one is fitted around other stuff in bathroom pipes, shower, bath, towel rail - under the regs. does one have to be fitted when changing light fittings - if so am i allowed to fit one myself?
Thanks Ban, getting new lights, this may make your day!
Went to local shed this morning to get cable for bonding (4mm) mentioned what I am up to to assistant he says "why do you want to do that if you've already got earth wire on lights, you don't need to do any thing else". Told him that I thought regs called for a supplementary bond ( I said secondary on earlier post) i.e. seperate cable from lighting back to pipes (or similar) - he says not needed - have I, or has he lost the plot? If I'm right does bond have to be looped to each light & pull switch?
Went to local shed this morning to get cable for bonding (4mm) mentioned what I am up to to assistant he says "why do you want to do that if you've already got earth wire on lights, you don't need to do any thing else". Told him that I thought regs called for a supplementary bond ( I said secondary on earlier post) i.e. seperate cable from lighting back to pipes (or similar) - he says not needed - have I, or has he lost the plot? If I'm right does bond have to be looped to each light & pull switch?
Was this him?:
But seriously - in the latest version of the IEE regulations, which are in force now, it is possible to not have supplementary equipotential bonding, but that's hedged around with other requirements which he clearly didn't mention, and which, as he seems to think that supplementary equipotential bonding is there to provide an earth for the circuit(s), he probably wouldn't understand.
It is not as simple as "not needed", and not only has he lost the plot, I'm not convinced that he even knew it in the first place, but I am convinced that he should not be giving people advice when he is obviously not competent to do so. PLEASE write to the manager and complain.
If you have extraneous-conductive-parts in your bathroom they should be bonded together and to the earth of each circuit supplying equipment in any of the Zones.
You don't run the bonding cable to every switch or light etc - just to whichever is the most convenient place to get a connection to the circuit earth.
This is a useful guide: http://web.archive.org/web/20051231060046/http://www.niceic.org.uk/downloads/NL139supp.pdf
That's him only older (surprisingly)!
Going back to the shop armed with N I C E I C info (which is v good), to see what he has to say!
From what you say the key to me is that "each circuit" has to be bonded, like in my case lights, shower, immersion heater (in airing cupboard but in bathroom on seperate circuit) and towel rail which is in zone 3 (not that that makes any difference). - just checked the last one, surprise, surprise, whilst earthed (including cable to outer casing) has no bonding, yet another job!
Also as a non-spark have to say I don't like the idea of "joining" supplementary bonding circuits with copper pipe if you know what I mean. Can see someone someday removing the pipes or repairing with plastic. I'm going to run cable something like, lights - shower - immersion heater - towel rail picking up pipes/bath (metal) on the way; most of it is there already just needs tweaking.
Not as easy as it sounds - lift floor boards, cut traps in ceiling - and you don't see any of it, misses thinks I'm idling about! See what you sparks get paid for now
Going back to the shop armed with N I C E I C info (which is v good), to see what he has to say!
From what you say the key to me is that "each circuit" has to be bonded, like in my case lights, shower, immersion heater (in airing cupboard but in bathroom on seperate circuit) and towel rail which is in zone 3 (not that that makes any difference).
- just checked the last one, surprise, surprise, whilst earthed (including cable to outer casing) has no bonding, yet another job!Also as a non-spark have to say I don't like the idea of "joining" supplementary bonding circuits with copper pipe if you know what I mean. Can see someone someday removing the pipes or repairing with plastic. I'm going to run cable something like, lights - shower - immersion heater - towel rail picking up pipes/bath (metal) on the way; most of it is there already just needs tweaking.
Not as easy as it sounds - lift floor boards, cut traps in ceiling - and you don't see any of it, misses thinks I'm idling about! See what you sparks get paid for now
What do you bet he's a retired electrician, who has heard vaguely about the relaxation of bonding requirements in some circumstances in the 17th, but hasn't got the full picture...That's him only older (surprisingly)!
Going back to the shop armed with N I C E I C info (which is v good), to see what he has to say!
The bonding bonds together the earths of all the circuits and all the extraneous-conductive-parts. As for the towel rail, if it has an earth connection it is a Class I appliance and therefore the outer case is not an extraneous-conductive-part and therefore does not need a bonding cable attached to it (it will in effect be bonded to everything it should be because the circuit earth will be bonded).From what you say the key to me is that "each circuit" has to be bonded, like in my case lights, shower, immersion heater (in airing cupboard but in bathroom on seperate circuit) and towel rail which is in zone 3 (not that that makes any difference).
Well they have to be bonded to the pipes...
Plastic pipes, of course, don't need bonding: Bonding & plastic pipes.
It can be done in close proximity, e.g. if you have access to all the pipes in the airing cupboard you can do it there....I'm going to run cable something like, lights - shower - immersion heater - towel rail picking up pipes/bath (metal) on the way; most of it is there already just needs tweaking.
Not as easy as it sounds - lift floor boards, cut traps in ceiling - and you don't see any of it, misses thinks I'm idling about! See what you sparks get paid for now
OK will let you know what happens.
We are on same wave length but for the benefit of our other readers when I said "I don't like the idea of "joining" supplementary bonding circuits with copper pipe", what i meant was: -
Say a lighting circuit is bonded to one end of a copper pipe and a shower circuit is bonded to the other (could be any distance away 1, 3, 10 metres whatever) if the copper pipe is ever cut (for whatever reason - someone sticks a plastic bit in the middle) the bonding between lighting circuit and shower circuit is broken - whilst still not perfect it seems better to me to have one continuous cable from light circuit to shower but still picking up (bonding) the copper pipe at both ends, that way if the pipe gets cut bonding still intact - Anyhow I'd better shut up now beginning to confuse myself - you're the sparky!
Thanks again
We are on same wave length but for the benefit of our other readers when I said "I don't like the idea of "joining" supplementary bonding circuits with copper pipe", what i meant was: -
Say a lighting circuit is bonded to one end of a copper pipe and a shower circuit is bonded to the other (could be any distance away 1, 3, 10 metres whatever) if the copper pipe is ever cut (for whatever reason - someone sticks a plastic bit in the middle) the bonding between lighting circuit and shower circuit is broken - whilst still not perfect it seems better to me to have one continuous cable from light circuit to shower but still picking up (bonding) the copper pipe at both ends, that way if the pipe gets cut bonding still intact - Anyhow I'd better shut up now beginning to confuse myself - you're the sparky!
Thanks again
Good idea - that's the reason that main bonding cables are supposed to be continuous.
Not me...
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