Funny Incident

[ban-all-sheds]

BTW, opinions from joe-90, GTM and TGM do not count on this subject.

GTM & TGM?

 

[Softus]

gaseetrainman and traineegasman - a single escaped lunatic, with two egos, who flamed me in the Plumbing forum.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Ah - I never go there.

If electricians are sparks, and carpenters are chippies, what are plumbers?

Leaks? Dribbles? Spurts?

 

[Softus]

Ah - I never go there.

You might enjoy it...

If electricians are sparks, and carpenters are chippies, what are plumbers?

Gits. And gas engineers are pompous gits.

 

[breezer]

no i am not big spark in disguise, but i still say you are wrong, and the lecturer is technicaly right.

still if i kept you amused fine.

all i can suggest is assume we are not talking about electricity, and say plumbing.

usinig pipes for the cables and a rad for the lamp.

use a directional flow meter, instead of an electical meter and see what happens.

the question is then when does the flow become the return

I will admit it does not seem right, but look at it again with a really open mind, forget what you know and read it again.

anyway, ban, its your turnn to get the beers

 

[Softus]

no i am not big spark in disguise, but i still say you are wrong, and the lecturer is technicaly right.

still if i kept you amused fine.

I think you're the only one who's amused by this. The rest of us are bemused.

all i can suggest is assume we are not talking about electricity, and say plumbing.

OK, let's get this over with, if we really have to...

usinig pipes for the cables and a rad for the lamp.

use a directional flow meter, instead of an electical meter and see what happens.

I shall assume that your analogy includes a pump, rather than relying on convection.

the question is then when does the flow become the return

When you reverse the direction of the pumped flow. Or, if there is no pump, then when gravity reverses its polarity.

I will admit it does not seem right, but look at it again with a really open mind, forget what you know and read it again.

Amazing - you're right - when I forget what I know it all makes perfect sense! So does the penguin in my fridge! I shall use this technique whenever I find myself talking absolute pants - I'll just tell the other peson to forget everything they know and reeeeelly open their mind.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

no i am not big spark in disguise, but i still say you are wrong, and the lecturer is technicaly right.

I will admit it does not seem right, but look at it again with a really open mind, forget what you know and read it again.

It's not a question of being open-minded - the lecturer is only "technically right" in such a pedantic and narrow way that as I said - nobody with any common sense, or desire to communicate properly with someone would ever call that black wire anything other than neutral.

you either made the diagram wrong or didn't follow it

you have put the switch ACROSS the live and neutral

How could he do that, if there is no neutral?

Would it be wrong to say that the black (neutral) should be marked with a red sleeve?

albert, yes it would be wrong, since in this case it is a neutral.

No it wouldn't - it would be a live.

you can not do as you suggest because with a timed fan it needs a switched live to make it work, agreed?

the switched live comes from the lighting circuit, agreed?

so how are you going to isolate the fan supply with a fcu that at best can only isolate 2 poles, , if you use it to isolate the lives you are not isolating it as the neutral is still connected, so if yo isolate the neytral which live do you isolate, and if you dont you can back feed into the lights so they will work when off and vice versa.

What neutral?

as its a timed fan, you should connect it direct to the light supply

the timed wire should go to the lamp live

normally it would be as follows

3 reds in middle of rose are always live (add fan live here)

2 blacks to one side of rose are neutral

No they're not - they are live, surely?


etc etc etc..

 

[bobmunk666]

The neutral is the live really cos electrons flow from -ve to +ve (the opposite by conention only) in much the same way as you swing your handbags

 

[bobmunk666]

convention should I say, a few pints at dinner.

 

[Softus]

convention should I say, a few pints at dinner.

You may not have spotted the button that looks like this:

 

[bobmunk666]

thanks for the pointer

 

[bobmunk666]

Does a switch not just switch in or out a connection (load) between the rails and the only difference being on which side of the load the switch is

Breezer

now here is the interesting bit

(the lamp is sitting above the switch, the supply connections are below the switch, sorry i didn't mention it earlier)

so the top black wire from the switch goes to the lamp, the bottom wire from the switch goes to the supply

you connect your red meter lead to the bottom switch terminal

(remember the meter black lead is still connected to the neutral supply)

your meter will show 0v (no potential difference between neutral and neutral)

The same argument would apply for the same situation on the live side. connecting a meter across the same rail will always give 0v. My point is a switch on the o/c position will allways give a reading of the pd between the two rails.

 

[Steve]

Does a switch not just switch in or out a connection (load) between the rails and the only difference being on which side of the load the switch is

Breezer

now here is the interesting bit

(the lamp is sitting above the switch, the supply connections are below the switch, sorry i didn't mention it earlier)

so the top black wire from the switch goes to the lamp, the bottom wire from the switch goes to the supply

you connect your red meter lead to the bottom switch terminal

(remember the meter black lead is still connected to the neutral supply)

your meter will show 0v (no potential difference between neutral and neutral)

The same argument would apply for the same situation on the live side. connecting a meter across the same rail will always give 0v

[/quote]
I may have misunderstood you, but lightswitches are single-pole - they only switch live, or, in breezer's example, neutral.

 

[bobmunk666]

My point is that a switch only switches a load between two pottentials, it is therfore neither switching the live or the neutral just the connection between them. No matter where in the circuit your switch is it will give a reading of v1 - v2 when it is in the open circuit position.

 

[andy]

he once tried to tell us that is physically impossibly for a light to work if the switch goes in the neutral instead of live...

How did that get resolved?

it didnt. we just couldnt be arsed arguing...

you have not quoted what he actualy said.

i did, he said the switch must go in the live. if its in the neutral, the circuit wont work.

oh, and he only knows of 3 types of earthing. TNS, TNCS and TT.

IT and TNC dont exist, apparantly....