Having Problems wiring 3 Gang and one 2 way switch

[securespark]

One of those cables in the top switch will be the pair of strappers (be nice to have a pair of strippers in your house!!).

The other cable you say has two cores?

Are they both stripped back?

If you have a choice, I would plump for the red...

 

[azztdi]

One of those cables in the top switch will be the pair of strappers (be nice to have a pair of strippers in your house!!).

The other cable you say has two cores?

Are they both stripped back?

If you have a choice, I would plump for the red...

I connected the strappers to L1 + L2 upstairs and downstairs then connected the red from upstairs to Com and left the blk not connected,as it was before,Downstairs i connected a negative to com and then into the choc block connecting it to neg from the Outside light and Power feed, Then i blew the fuse from the box..This is gettin too complicated now..I appreciate your help guys..But im going to try the other way around later, i.e Source live into downstairs com and connected the blk upstairs to com.

 

[securespark]

I managed to turn on the hall and outside lights, Now how do i activate the 2 way for the upstairs from this switch as i only have 2 core (Red+Blk) and earth.

You seem to be going backwards!

You have the two downstairs lights reconnected to that 3G switch & working, from what you say above.

You should have red wires attached to the COM. One live feed into one COM terminal & a loop across to the others.

No black wires should go to COM.

The strappers go into the L1 & L2 of the switch which has no wires attached to L1 or L2 at the moment.

Those same strappers (albeit the other end of the strapper cable) go to L1 & L2 of the top switch.

Then one of those other conductors at the top switch goes to the COM of that switch.

PLEASE POST A PICCY OF THE REAR OF BOTH SWITCHES AS IT IS NOW.

 

[Veglen]

azztdi, this is not a criticism but you should not be switching on the power to this circuit until you have confirmed the connections are correct.

This is gettin too complicated now..

It isn't complicated stuff you need to test with your meter!

But im going to try the other way around later,

What is the other way round???
It's at this point I think you should be made aware of the fact that each time a fuse blows the cables insulation deteriorates!

You would probably be best to start again using your multi-meter as you did on the other circuits.

I'm sure securespark will be able to go through the process with you if necessary as he's obviously the patience of a saint!

The strappers and switch wire can all be found by continuity testing!

Forgive me if I have come across like i'm sounding off but anybody energizing a circuit without checking the basics is really naughty and it is also dangerous.

V

 

[Space cat]

I connected the strappers to L1 + L2 upstairs and downstairs then connected the red from upstairs to Com and left the blk not connected,as it was before,

That sounds good but ---

Downstairs i connected a negative to com and then into the choc block connecting it to neg from the Outside light and Power feed, --

You've found the correct circuit diagram already so let's follow it through the wires:

It's obvious from your photo of the old switch that live power comes in at the downstairs switch. I hope you can see that quite clearly from the way that the three original switches are linked by short pieces of red wire. If you don't understand that bit then you really ought to study it until you do.

You've connected the strappers correctly between the L1 and L2 terminals of the upstairs and downstairs switches and you've connected the remaining red to COM at the upstairs switch. You know it should be the red wire because black wasn't used before.

The rest of the circuit is out of sight. That red wire from COM in the upstairs switch will go to one side of the light and another wire will go from the other side of the light to neutral. That will give you the complete circuit from live (downstairs) through the downstairs switch to the upstairs switch, then to the light and, finally, to neutral. If you can't see this I suggest that you study it until it makes sense. (You should also be able to see how the two-way switching works. )

Or can i switch the wiring around, i.e to use the live feed from upstairs and connect downstairs Com to negative?

You don't have a live feed upstairs and there is no way that you should even try to 'switch the wiring around'. From what you've described so far, your upstairs switch is now wired correctly. Downstairs, all you have to do is connect COM on the third switch to live. Make NO connections from ANY terminals on ANY switch to the choc block.

 

[securespark]

PLEASE POST A PICCY OF THE REAR OF BOTH SWITCHES AS IT IS NOW.

 

[azztdi]

I done it, Thanks Guys
I read all the threads over and over again, and with the help of the multimeter i have figured it out, exactly as you guys have described,It makes sense now, The live feed comes from downstairs to upstairs, The strappers are connected and both the switches are working now as 2way for hall and landing.. ..Ive double checked all the connections are safe and secure..I most definately will not be doing this again without taking pictures first and making diagrams...I will be around this site , Its got loads of useful information with very very helpful members..
I have realised that without having even the basics of wiring knowledge its stupidity to attempt something which compromises safety in the home.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I have realised that without having even the basics of wiring knowledge its stupidity to attempt something which compromises safety in the home.

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//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=75416#75416
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[Space cat]

Now that you've got it all sorted out, you might like to know about a bodge known as the borrowed neutral. It's sometimes found in the kind of 2-way wiring that you have and it works like this:

Live power comes from the downstairs lighting circuit but the light being switched is upstairs. Is that what you've got? Now, to complete the circuit properly, the neutral side of that light should be connected back to the downstairs circuit. The problem is that it's a long way down and neutral wires for the upstairs lights are close at hand. And so the lazy electrician 'borrows' a neutral from the upstairs circuit.

What does this means to you? In normal use it won't matter. Your lights will work perfectly. The trouble starts when you want to work on the upstairs lights. You switch off this circuit at the CU and all the upstairs lights go off - all except the one in the hall. You expect that because you know it gets its power from downstairs where the lights are still on.

Your meter tells you that every part of the upstairs lighting circuit is dead so that's alright then - until you disconnect a critical neutral wire. There's a spark from the end of the wire and the hall light goes out. What the bl**dy hell!!!

Can you work out what happened?

 

[Veglen]

connected a negative to com and then into the choc block connecting it to neg from the Outside light and Power feed, Then i blew the fuse from the box..This is gettin too complicated now..

I done it

Phew! Can I come out now? I've been hiding behind the settee!

Well Done

V

 

[azztdi]

Thanks Space Cat
i've figured it out now how this old way of 2 way switching works, the way you guys explained makes it easy to understand..
just out of interest,so this borrowed neutral borrowed from the upstairs light, where is it coming from exactly? i mean on the ceiling rose connector would it be connected to the neutral or the loop? why is mine Red? It works fine so does this mean somebody has messed with this before and used the wrong colour at the rose,by switching and using the red as neutral?
im just going to have a peep up there tomorrow, just so i know its all ok and sound.

p.s lol veglen.. you may come out now..

 

[Space cat]

why is mine Red?

The neutral connection from the light is the one wire in the circuit that you can't see. That red wire connected to COM in the upstairs switch isn't neutral; it's switched live going to the light.

im just going to have a peep up there tomorrow, just so i know its all ok and sound.

This is the best way to find out what you've got. Start by looking for the other end of that red wire. It might go directly to the light or it might go to a junction box first. You might find that all your lights are wired up via junction boxes. It was standard practice at one time. There's nothing wrong with it - unless some penny-pincher has twisted the earths together outside the boxes. (You can connect two separate lights into the same box by doing this.)

But I digress. When you get to the light, follow the other wire; the neutral wire. It should go back down one floor and join up with the neutral wires of the downstairs lights. If it's connected to a neutral on another upstairs light, it's been borrowed.

Edit: When you find the other end of the red wire, look for the black one that's in the same cable. Every wire has two ends. The one in the switch is isolated in choc-block. Where, if anywhere, does the other end go? I have a rule: Never trust a wire if you can't find both ends!

 

[securespark]

Round of applause for azztdi!!

 

[azztdi]

Round of applause for azztdi!!

lol,
And Thanks Space Cat,
your'e right, the red is the switched live, All ok at the ceiling, They go direct to the rose.. All seems fine and your'e theory is 100% spot on..Excellent.. BIG Thanks to you Guys.