House Renovation - Electrical Design Help Needed

[ericmark]

Back in 1980's I worked in Algeria and I found sticking an earth rod in the ground in HassiR'mel in the desert just didn't work. Hence why I said UK damp conditions. People I worked with said they had same problems in other countries and really it was down to a risk assessment rather than simply following regulations.

I would not want to install a final ring circuit as far too easy for sockets to be changed to German rubbish and so I would say no way around having loads of radials.

Because of the number of circuits I would consider either a double or two consumer units one for each floor. However first one has to know the supply is it single, split or three phase as this would clearly impact on the design.

Single or split double unit would work but three phase would need more thought. AC units are the real worry as one can real have some large loads and when working in Hong Kong one could see how the electric bill soared in the summer.

Start loads with three phase are very different to single phase and if three phase is an option running AC units from 3 phase supply would seem the way to go.

However the inverter manufacture has jumped leaps and bounds and I left warmer climate too long ago to know what is now on the market and as a result my ideas of how to handle the AC load may be very dated.

The expat electrician is not some expert although many think he is and finding some one who has expat and UK knowledge and has the skills required will be hard.

When I think back to 1980 I was one of those chancers I was lucky nothing went wrong. In the 1990's in the Falklands I was far more skilled and by time I went to Hong Kong I was quite skilled but still I found local conditions resulted in having to deviate from BS7671. It was the first time I had worked on a IT system and believe me that's nasty I carried a neon screwdriver with me and tested every bit of metal before touching.

As well as not knowing if single, split or three phase we have no idea of earthing system and really we need this basic information before we can give any advice.

 

[JohnW2]

...As for the OP I think you are being a bit cheeky since you are being paid to do the work you need to consider your liability to the client and consider employing or contracting out the design and the work. ... Once you have the suggested design I'm sure we can help, but it seems a tad naughty for you to want some guys of the nets to design a solution for you.

To be fair:

I am based in Waltham Cross, Hertfordshire, so if anyone is fairly local to look over the drawings and chat about the design, that would be perfect. I will of course be happy to pay for your time.

...does that not count as "contracting out the design work"?

Kind Regards, John

 

[scousespark]

Hi. Good to see you!
I think you probably need to define that 'we'. What you say is, IMO, how it should be, but it is apparent that a substantial proportion of electricians do "work to satisfy regulations" - and, in their defence, it does seem that a fair bit of the 'training' of electricians these days majors on regulations, rather than electrical principles, 'thinking' or even 'common sense'.

Kind Regards, John

I was responding to the 'much of what we do' quote.

This site regularly has debates about the wording of certain regs. I don't belive this backs up the claim in the quote. The regs are intended to provide the framework for us to work safely and leave safe installations.

Why is it apparent that electricians only work to satisfy the regs? Is this based on a full study, or is it just annecdotal and based on work you have witnessed? I can't comment on the EAL course, but C&G 2360 (and it's descendants) covers electrical principles.

 

[JohnW2]

I was responding to the 'much of what we do' quote.

It's obviously possible to debate what eric's 'much' actually means.

This site regularly has debates about the wording of certain regs. I don't belive this backs up the claim in the quote. The regs are intended to provide the framework for us to work safely and leave safe installations.

I'm not sure that it 'backs up' eric's claim, but the purpose of such debates is presumably to seek clarification of what people have to do to satisfy the regs. People probably would not bother to engage in such debates unless they intended to comply with the outcome of those debates.

Why is it apparent that electricians only work to satisfy the regs? Is this based on a full study, or is it just annecdotal and based on work you have witnessed?

Obviously not a study. Partially work I have witnessed, but largely on the basis of what I've seen/heard electricians saying, both on this forum and more widely.

For example ... there are countless, probably millions, of '3-pole fan isolators' out there that have been installed by electricians. Were all the installations concerned 'left significantly more safe' as a result of these accessories being fitted - or were, perhaps, at least a substantial proportion of them installed primarily in order to satisfy BS7671's requirement to comply with the manufactuer's instructions?

Kind Regards, John

 

[scousespark]

When you read the debates around the wording of regs, the posters are mostly DIYERS. Most of whom are here for advice.

I don't see how you can take posts on an anonymous internet forum (from a mix of electricians and diyers of varying skill levels) together with your observation of an unquantified number of elecetricains to determine that most just work to the regs. How many electricains have you observed/heard and in what context?

Given the relatively few deaths/reported injuries from electrical installations, I would not say there is a major risk.

 

[JohnW2]

When you read the debates around the wording of regs, the posters are mostly DIYERS. Most of whom are here for advice. ... I don't see how you can take posts on an anonymous internet forum (from a mix of electricians and diyers of varying skill levels) together with your observation of an unquantified number of elecetricains to determine that most just work to the regs. How many electricains have you observed/heard and in what context?

This is really just become a semantic argument about the quantitative meaning of words like eric's 'much' and my 'substantial proportion' (I don't think I ever said 'most').

It's not really about 'debates', but rather about what electricians say and advise. Don't forget that your involvement in this thread started with a critical comment about what an electrician had written. Maybe some of the electricians feel it inappropriate to be fully honest 'in public' about what they do, but what they say they do, and what they advise others to do, is, not surprisingly, usually based on strict compliance with regulations, even if they indicate or imply that they would probably act differently if it were not for the regs - the fan isolator situation I cited is, I think, a good example.

Given the relatively few deaths/reported injuries from electrical installations, I would not say there is a major risk.

I'm not quite sure what your point is here - if it had any effect, over-jealous strict compliance with regulations would probably reduce the tiny risks that exist, wouldn't it? In general, I agree with you. As I often say, the (pretty surprising) incredibly low number of deaths, and very low number of serious injuries, due to electrical installations is such as to make one question how much safety-orientated 'regulation' actually achieves. As I've said, if one abolished Part P and reduced BS7671 to a dozen or so pages of the most basic guidance (cable CCCs) etc, I suspect that one might be hard-pressed to measure any consequent change in morbidity/mortality due to electrical installations!

Kind Regards, John

 

[scousespark]

In your posts, you refer to 'electricians' who you have read quotes/heard stating that they don't follow the regs or follow them because thay have to. Given there are several thousand electricians working in the UK, I would be interested in the number of instances you are referring to. I work in the inductry, but have no idea if 'a substantial proportion' of us do what you say you have experienced.

The regs don't just cover domestic and it is just a slight possibility that the regs have led to the low level of death/injury. If you take any of the regs away, I would not be surprised to see the safety reduce. If you are only working on doestic, there are books which give plenty of advice as to how to work to the regs.

 

[scousespark]

The point I was making about postcodes is that a check on an MOT station is easy. You get the postcode, check the opening times and turn up.

I am assuming you are referring to domestic work, as I don't belive you have experience in the commercial/industrial arena.

We could have a new scheme where electricians notify jobs (not just EICRS) before starting, so the scheme operator can arrange a surprise vist. However, this would indeed be a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

 

[JohnW2]

The point I was making about postcodes is that a check on an MOT station is easy. You get the postcode, check the opening times and turn up. ... We could have a new scheme where electricians notify jobs (not just EICRS) before starting, so the scheme operator can arrange a surprise vist. However, this would indeed be a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

That's the sort of thing I was talking about - but, as I've said repeatedly, it's not going to happen (well, certainly not any time soon). As you've said, the actually risks are seemingly so small that it would be hard to justify, and might not even change things very much. However, people can't have it both ways - so long as we accept the present situation in which there is no QC/QA of EICRs (or any self-certified, or non-notifiable, work undertaken by electricians) people can/should not moan about the fact that there is no such QC/QA, and should accept that the only 'confidence' they have has to be based on 'trust' of the electrician(s) concerned.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

In your posts, you refer to 'electricians' who you have read quotes/heard stating that they don't follow the regs or follow them because thay have to. Given there are several thousand electricians working in the UK, I would be interested in the number of instances you are referring to. I work in the inductry, but have no idea if 'a substantial proportion' of us do what you say you have experienced.

We can quibble until the cows come home about definitions, words and quantification. If you want to change my "a substantial proportion" to "a proportion", or even just to "some", then feel free. What I don't really understand is why you are taking me to task for commenting on (and largely agreeing with) the comment initially made by eric (an electrician).

It may be 'sad' that I've bothered to do this counting, but do you realise that about 32 of your last 40 posts (80%, going back to April) have been in response to things I have written? I find that rather intriguing, and am not sure very I should be flattered, annoyed or frightened

The regs don't just cover domestic and it is just a slight possibility that the regs have led to the low level of death/injury. If you take any of the regs away, I would not be surprised to see the safety reduce.

I agree. The regs are not going to go away, or 'reduce' - and, at least in relation to some tradesmen, reduction of regulations would probably result in a reduction of safety. However, on the contrary, the regs are undoubtedly going to become increasingly detailed and prescriptive.

It's the way of the increasingly regulated world. Whether one is talking about tradesmen, 'customer service' personnel, airline pilots, doctors or whatever, there is an increasing requirement to work to prescriptive regulations/instructions - whether by way of checklists, flowcharts, protocols or whatever, rather than the 'old fashioned' system which relied on individual decisions/judgements based on training, knowledge and experience. Of course, in at least some walks of life, that is becoming self-perpetuating, since the training of the individuals concerned is such that they probably could not do the job in the absence of such regulations/instructions.

Kind Regards, John

 

[scousespark]

I would like to point out that I answered Eric and asked if he believes we (fellow electricians) are following a set of daft regulations. You decided to answer on behalf of Eric.

IMO, the safety record is a resulot of following the regs. The regs have 432 pages. Do you seriously believe that 420 of thes contain useless information? If the introduction of 20 mph limits around schools cuts accident rates by 50%, would you then recommend that the limit is put back up to 30 mph as school children are obviously safe.

As a DIYER, I accept that you would only need to know a few regs to cover most of what you do. However, the regs cover the scope of electrical installation, so electricians will reference different sets of regs on diffeent jobs.

 

[stillp]

about 32 of your last 40 posts (80%, going back to April) have been in response to things I have written?

How does that compare with the average for all posters John?
Given your high post rate, I wouldn't be amazed if the majority of many people's posts were in response to something you'd written

 

[JohnW2]

about 32 of your last 40 posts (80%, going back to April) have been in response to things I have written?

How does that compare with the average for all posters John? Given your high post rate, I wouldn't be amazed if the majority of many people's posts were in response to something you'd written

I would hope to be able to avoid engaging in any further large-scale counting exercises, but I'm quite sure the figure for virtually any other poster (let alone the average for all posters, which would be much lower) would be dramatically less than 80%, particularly for low-volume posters such as scousespark.

As I've said to scousepark before, I'm just a little intrigued by his posting behaviour. He usually appears once every week or two (most commonly on Mondays) and posts a (usually somewhat 'critical') message or two in response to things I've written since he was last here, and only rarely posts responses to what anyone else has written. I can't believe that he has time to read all the posts which have arisen in a period of 2 weeks or more, so I suppose I should be flattered that he seems to read so much of what I write.

As I have attempted to explain to him (but presume he does not believe), the impression I get is that he believes that I have an 'agenda' which I do not have.

Whilst there are plenty of people here (like yourself) who commonly respond to my posts, they invariably also respond to a lot of posts from others. I'd be very surprised if (m)any people would even get up to 20% or 30% of posts being in response to mine, let alone 80%

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

IMO, the safety record is a resulot of following the regs. The regs have 432 pages. Do you seriously believe that 420 of thes contain useless information? If the introduction of 20 mph limits around schools cuts accident rates by 50%, would you then recommend that the limit is put back up to 30 mph as school children are obviously safe. ... As a DIYER, I accept that you would only need to know a few regs to cover most of what you do. However, the regs cover the scope of electrical installation, so electricians will reference different sets of regs on diffeent jobs.

You are taking my comments far to literally. Your surely don't think that I have ever seriously intended to suggest that the regs should be reduced to 12 pages, do you? I merely said, as a discussion point, that if the regs consisted only of a dozen or so pages of crucial reference material, then safety (in the hands of well-trained, knowledgeable and experienced electricians) might well reduce a lot less than one might 'expect'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

I would hope to be able to avoid engaging in any further large-scale counting exercises, but I'm quite sure the figure for virtually any other poster (let alone the average for all posters, which would be much lower) would be dramatically less than 80%, particularly for low-volume posters such as scousespark. ... Whilst there are plenty of people here (like yourself) who commonly respond to my posts, they invariably also respond to a lot of posts from others. I'd be very surprised if (m)any people would even get up to 20% or 30% of posts being in response to mine, let alone 80%

Despite what I wrote -) ), I've looked at the last 40 posts for a few well-known forum members and ascertained approximately (i.e. "E&OE"!) what proportion of them were responses to things I'd written:

• scousepark: 32/40 (80%)
  
  stillp: 8/40 (20%)
  EFLImpudence: 8/40 (20%)
  riveralt: 4/40 (10%)
  RF Lighting 2/40 (5%)

... the average for those last 4 being 13.75%, rather less than 80%!

Kind REgards, John