How serious is this?

[Sprogginz]

I've just seen this!

No idea how long it has been like this. As you should be able to see, several up right bricks are pressing down on the patio.

Apparently this patio was installed around summer of 2014 and I bought it in November of that year.

Surely they've installed some kind of lintel and if so, am I supposed to be able to see it?

Could this be a very serious building mistake or nothing to really worry about?

Thanks very much.

 

[noseall]

Surely they've installed some kind of lintel

Doubtful.

Could this be a very serious building mistake or nothing to really worry about?

Potentially it could be a problem. At present the brick slippage has occurred in a very fortunate position.

You need some of this......

Blackangle2

• noseall
• 11 Oct 2017

Blackangle1

• noseall
• 11 Oct 2017

 

[footprints]

Yes very common with new windows the old wooden frames used to support the brick the new UPVC do not. The soldier course (upright) of bricks has even less supportive strength than a normal one.
Installers do not put lintels in as a rule and then this happens!
As said above get a brickie in to fit a lintel and repair the triangle of bricks above.

 

[Sprogginz]

Thank you, most helpful.

So, if he didn't put a lintel in then should he have legally done so? If so, are they legally obliged to come back and fix it?

By pure coincidence, we are going to have a uPVC porch installed and I contacted the guy who installed this patio and windows for a quote.
I'm now in a dilema, if this was the work of shoddy workmanship then maybe I shouldn't trust him to do the porch? However, if I give him the job then he might be obliged to fix this but if I don't and tell him about this problem then he might be uncooperative when he knows the porch has been given to someone else!

I don't know what was there before he installed the patio but I guess the first port of call would be to establish if he went against any building regulations?

Thanks again.

 

[Sprogginz]

Yes very common with new windows the old wooden frames used to support the brick the new UPVC do not. The soldier course (upright) of bricks has even less supportive strength than a normal one.
Installers do not put lintels in as a rule and then this happens!
As said above get a brickie in to fit a lintel and repair the triangle of bricks above.

Sorry, just saw your post after I posted my second one. You may have just answered some of the questions already!
I take it wasn't illegal not to put one in?
Thanks.

 

[Doggit]

If you've got the receipt for the installation, then I'd be inclined to go back to them, and have a go at them for causing the damage. No, window installers don't tend to bother installing lintels (lazy bastards) but by now, they should be aware that it needs an assessment to check if one needs installing. Their lack of care has cause the soldier course to drop, and they should at least be made to remove the window, and replace it after the lintel has been put in place.

The builder should be able to support the soldier course, get the new lintel in, and then reinstate the dropped bricks, and finally, repoint the cracked courses above.

The porch shouldn't be an issue, but he may well be more inclined to help sorting out the lintel if it means he might get the porch job as well. As always, talking with him will help.

 

[footprints]

I had this twice, first time with BAC over a large front window, after a lot of pestering they came back and put an angle iron in that cured it.
The second was a house I bought that had one of those awful tilt and slide patio doors fitted with the same problem, I got a brickie in to fit a lintel before the new door was fitted.
As to the legal position this might be your best first port of call.
https://www.fensa.org.uk/

 

[^woody^]

So, if he didn't put a lintel in then should he have legally done so? If so, are they legally obliged to come back and fix it?

They have no contract with you and no duty or liability to you.

But you could possibly complain to their trade association.

It needs a lintel. Every time the door opens or shuts it will vibrate the wall a bit more. Ultimately the door will bind on the frame.

 

[Notch7]

Window and door fitting falls under building regs.

However, because there are so many being fitted, building control cant spend the time.

So window installers have been allowed to self certificate by being registered with Fensa or Certass.

Structural integrity is part of compliance so installers should fit lintels where there are none. The problem happens because lots of houses were built with either metal crittall windows or timber windows. They would have been put in place and bricked around and because they are quite strong and stiff they are able to support the brickwork above. So when an installer cones along and fits plastic, the new window is less stiff and a gap may left above the window, maybe just foamed up and trimmed over. A while later you get exactly what you have.

It needs doing, but I wouldnt panic thinking the side of the house will fall down any time soon......

 

[Sprogginz]

Thank you all again, this is brilliant.

I think it seems fair to say by your comments that by him 'not' putting in a lintel of some sort wasn't illegal but just bad practice or questionable?

In the meantime I will dig out the certificates for this that came with the deeds etc. I will also contact the organisation who he is registered with and see what they have to say.

He seems a nice enough guy. If I give him the porch job, he has to come round again and do a proper survey so I'll show him the damage then and hopefully he will be happy to fix it - or run a mile!

Thanks very much.

 

[noseall]

Installing a lintel would have been an additional cost in any case, so you will have to pay to have one retrospectively fitted.

 

[Notch7]

Thank you all again, this is brilliant.

I think it seems fair to say by your comments that by him 'not' putting in a lintel of some sort wasn't illegal but just bad practice or questionable?

In the meantime I will dig out the certificates for this that came with the deeds etc. I will also contact the organisation who he is registered with and see what they have to say.

He seems a nice enough guy. If I give him the porch job, he has to come round again and do a proper survey so I'll show him the damage then and hopefully he will be happy to fix it - or run a mile!

Thanks very much.

Trade associations have no teeth, they are funded by subscriptions paid by window installers, so you wont get much further than a diplomatic confirmation lintels should have been fitted.

As Noseall says, in any case the cost would be an extra anyway.

 

[dishman]

If you read my recent posts regarding UPVC windows and lintels, it seems to be a problem still very prevalent in the industry.

Many companies seem to:

1) Not install lintels where required, as you are finding out. They usually fob you off about re-enforcing the frame. Which is not a solution.
2) Only installing lintels in the windows that are easy to access (ground floor).
3) Using untreated angle irons, which, although better than nothing, could end up rusting and expanding and will need replacing.

If you read my thread(s), I have had a headache and a half trying to find a company that does not do any of the above.

 

[Sprogginz]

Would anybody have a good idea how much it would cost to put a lintel in? £200, £500 or £1000?

 

[dishman]

If you look at my threads, I put the quotes I have received for putting in lintels to all of the rear windows on my property.

For a single opening, the quotes came in at £300 - £600 mark.

You may want to check the other windows (especially ground floor ones) for signs of a lack of lintel.Your French doors may be the first to show signs of failure because of the size of the opening and the weight of the French doors opening and closing.

My problem was finding a builder that was prepared to bother with such a small job. I also had a problem finding one that was prepared to install something other than a untreated angle iron. Some builders wanted to remove the soldier course (the decorative part above the window) and replace it with standard brickwork to make it easier for themselves.