How to improve insulation

[^woody^]

Your problem is not wall insulation.

A heating system should be capable of heating the rooms and keeping them warm. This is irrespective of insulation. All insulation does is allow the heating to be used less frequently, not magically keep the rooms warmer.

Sort the heating out, then deal with any draughts.

Only then look at insulation. And ensure you will be getting the comfort and energy saving by spending money insulating, rather than just using the heating for longer. You may find that wall insulating may have a very long payback time and offer no real extra comfort.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Part of what I'm trying to work out is a) how much money I'm going to have to spend to sort this and b) if I'm likely to start spending money but not see any benefit without spending a small fortune on external insulation given the front of the house is solid brick not cavity. For example I don't particularly want to pay out for insulation in the roof, filling cavity walls and better windows & doors to still be sat here freezing!

To be honest I deliberately purchased what was supposed to be a turnkey property due to how bad I am at DIY. A year later I'm over £14K in and wondering if I should be spending more or looking at moving in a few years. But I guess that's a discussion for another thread.

Owning your own property is an exercise in DIY, it is an opportunity to learn and save yourself a lot of money. I would start with the easiest to fix, the uninsulated cold roof space.

 

[Dodgyrog]

Your problem is not wall insulation.

A heating system should be capable of heating the rooms and keeping them warm. This is irrespective of insulation. All insulation does is allow the heating to be used less frequently, not magically keep the rooms warmer.

Sort the heating out, then deal with any draughts.

Only then look at insulation. And ensure you will be getting the comfort and energy saving by spending money insulating, rather than just using the heating for longer. You may find that wall insulating may have a very long payback time and offer no real extra comfort.

Good advice.!

I had similar issue in an old victorian house which although was large and draughty also had an under performing heating system. Whilst waiting for it to be upgraded we put some electric heaters around and they soon warmed things up nicely - before we did anything about draughts and insulation. So if not already maybe beg, borrow, steal some electric heaters (pref the oil rad type ones) and experiment to see what difference that makes.

You also say heating is on full blast all day, but what about at night? Better to have heating on a more average temp but almost on all the time to keep the house continuously warm rather than dropping temp at night and then the heating has to struggle to get the place warm again in the morning. I also wonder if your thermostat position and lack of rad size in other rooms is an issue. The thermostat needs to be in a position of average warmth whereas it sounds like your warm hallway could be kicking the heating off before the main rooms warm up. No TRV's on some rads might not help. The bathroom one is fine without one (and its good to have one with no TRV anyway) but maybe get a TRV on the hallway one and keep it set low so that your hallway does heat up so much allowing the thermostat to not cut the heating so much.

You say the rads get hot but just how hot? A good system can get the rads really cooking to belt heat out in to the room. OK, you can go too hot but at least make sure they are a decent heat. Do you have a trustworthy plumber / heating engineer you can get round for an opinion without an obligation to spend?

Finally one aspect of insulation that might be worth considering though as they are cheap and quick are the reflective shields that go behind the radiators - I was given some of the "Heatkeeper" ones as per this link -

https://heatkeeper.co.uk/

Now I do not know if they are scientifically proven or otherwise but it does make some logical sense if you have a damp cold external wall behind a radiator that some heat might possibly get redirected in to the room by these things. They are relatively inexpensive and very simple / quick to install so I can't see too much harm in trying them just to give your system every bit of help you can.

 

[Serenity74]

Your problem is not wall insulation.

A heating system should be capable of heating the rooms and keeping them warm. This is irrespective of insulation. All insulation does is allow the heating to be used less frequently, not magically keep the rooms warmer.

Sort the heating out, then deal with any draughts.

Only then look at insulation. And ensure you will be getting the comfort and energy saving by spending money insulating, rather than just using the heating for longer. You may find that wall insulating may have a very long payback time and offer no real extra comfort.

That's my concern really. As oldbutnotdead suggested I did a heatless calculation and the lounge, which is where the problem is, should need 7926 BTUs and already has 9124 which should be more than enough.

With that in mind what do I do to sort the heating? There's not an obvious place for any more radiators but I don't think the solution is to just keep adding radiators until it feels warmer! Something seems off and I'm concerned I'm going to start spending money on something and it be a never ending 'try this', 'try that' with more and more money going out and the problem remaining unresolved.

 

[Serenity74]

Owning your own property is an exercise in DIY, it is an opportunity to learn and save yourself a lot of money. I would start with the easiest to fix, the uninsulated cold roof space.

Been there done that! This is the third place I've owned and past experience suggests attempting to learn how to do things and do it myself just means making a bigger mess and then paying someone to come in and fix the mess I've made on top of what originally needed doing!

 

[Serenity74]

You also say heating is on full blast all day, but what about at night? Better to have heating on a more average temp but almost on all the time to keep the house continuously warm rather than dropping temp at night and then the heating has to struggle to get the place warm again in the morning. I also wonder if your thermostat position and lack of rad size in other rooms is an issue. The thermostat needs to be in a position of average warmth whereas it sounds like your warm hallway could be kicking the heating off before the main rooms warm up. No TRV's on some rads might not help. The bathroom one is fine without one (and its good to have one with no TRV anyway) but maybe get a TRV on the hallway one and keep it set low so that your hallway does heat up so much allowing the thermostat to not cut the heating so much.

You say the rads get hot but just how hot? A good system can get the rads really cooking to belt heat out in to the room. OK, you can go too hot but at least make sure they are a decent heat. Do you have a trustworthy plumber / heating engineer you can get round for an opinion without an obligation to spend?

I've tried leaving the heating on overnight, more out of concern for the dog than anything else, and it doesn't seem to make a huge difference. Upstairs isn't really a problem anyway to be honest so I don't really get a shock getting out of bed and it being freezing, its the lounge that just doesn't seem to get warm enough.

I need to get someone in to replace the bathroom one as its old, rusty and a horrible cream colour so when I get round to that I can ask them why there's another non-TRV radiator in the hall and if that needs replacing as well. Want to get the thermostat replaced with a smart thermostat and potentially smart radiator valves on the existing radiators. My boiler only has a dial type setting so its on / off at the same times 7 days a week. Would be handy to have more control but again wary of starting to spend money if the heating system isn't up to the job and / or I decide to not stay here long term.

 

[Serenity74]

Insulation in the kitchen roof seems the most popular starting point so the next question is how do you insulate a roof with no access? There's no loft space, its a single story extension with a pitched roof.

The whole kitchen could do with ripping out and starting again tbh but that's not affordable at the moment. Is it best to wait until then and rip the ceiling down as well. Doesn't seem so drastic doing it if the whole kitchen is being redone.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Been there done that! This is the third place I've owned and past experience suggests attempting to learn how to do things and do it myself just means making a bigger mess and then paying someone to come in and fix the mess I've made on top of what originally needed doing!

The thing is, with each attempt you learn and become more capable as time goes on. Often it's quicker doing jobs yourself, than the time you would spend trying to find someone to do the work for you. Getting someone in, is absolutely no guarantee that they will do any better a job, than you yourself could have done - this forum is filled with people who have paid a 'professional' and it has all turned into a disaster.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

The whole kitchen could do with ripping out and starting again tbh but that's not affordable at the moment. Is it best to wait until then and rip the ceiling down as well. Doesn't seem so drastic doing it if the whole kitchen is being redone.

Well, you could start by posting a series of photos in a new thread and asking for advice. I would be looking at either making an access hatch, like a loft hatch, or removing roof tiles to get in that way.

 

[^woody^]

That's my concern really. As oldbutnotdead suggested I did a heatless calculation and the lounge, which is where the problem is, should need 7926 BTUs and already has 9124 which should be more than enough.

With that in mind what do I do to sort the heating? There's not an obvious place for any more radiators but I don't think the solution is to just keep adding radiators until it feels warmer! Something seems off and I'm concerned I'm going to start spending money on something and it be a never ending 'try this', 'try that' with more and more money going out and the problem remaining unresolved.

It's not just a case of calculating what output a radiator should have, but considering the location of the radiators. One rad at the end of a large room can create draughts as it pulls cooler air across the room, so two radiators suitably located will be better. And radiators need to have more capacity that a heatloss calc says.

System balanced for even heating?

A cold upstairs/hall/landing is going to pull heat out of the lounge like a chimney

Vertical slim double radiator in kitchen?

Fan assisted high-level radiator?

Radiators in hall and landing?

TRVs and programmer?

CH system used differently to heat more of the house, even if some rooms are heated lower when not used?

Draught-proof internal doors.

 

[Serenity74]

It's not just a case of calculating what output a radiator should have, but considering the location of the radiators. One rad at the end of a large room can create draughts as it pulls cooler air across the room, so two radiators suitably located will be better. And radiators need to have more capacity that a heatloss calc says.

System balanced for even heating?

A cold upstairs/hall/landing is going to pull heat out of the lounge like a chimney

Vertical slim double radiator in kitchen?

Fan assisted high-level radiator?

Radiators in hall and landing?

TRVs and programmer?

CH system used differently to heat more of the house, even if some rooms are heated lower when not used?

Draught-proof internal doors.

The red lines are radiators, the blue mark is where the thermostat is. Both radiators are the same, single panel.

The upstairs / hall / landing doesn't have the same problem, its just the lounge, well the kitchen as well but I'm not too fussed about that being cold. The TRVs on both are set to max. The programmer is pretty basic so its currently set to on from 7am - 11pm 7 days a week. Its a Main Combi 24 he boiler.

The TRVs on the upstairs radiators are set to about half power and give enough heat. The radiators are definitely working as they get so hot you can't touch them.

I did wonder if, as the kitchen isn't insulated, the heat was escaping out the double doors from the lounge to the kitchen but others have suggested insulation & drafts aren't really the issue. Also if it was that wouldn't it be colder nearer the double doors? If anything the opposite is true!

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

The upstairs / hall / landing doesn't have the same problem, its just the lounge, well the kitchen as well but I'm not too fussed about that being cold. The TRVs on both are set to max.

Just to point out, that turning them up to max, will do nothing - trv's only set an upper limit to temperature, they cannot make a room warmer. They prevent a room getting too warm. In the lounge, as a test to confirm it is cold through that double door, you could try temporarily covering it with heavy curtain.

You could also try measuring various surfaces in the room, with a contactless temperature gun, they are not expensive. Looking for cold surfaces, might provide the clues you need as to where the cold is coming from.

 

[Serenity74]

You could also try measuring various surfaces in the room, with a contactless temperature gun, they are not expensive.

I've got one arriving today. Hopefully it will make things clearer rather than making me more confused!

 

[thomp1983]

If the radiators upstairs get so hot you can't touch them then I'd be closing the lockshield a bit, this may also make the downstairs radiators be hotter

 

[mikeey84]

A drafty house will feel cold.

I think the kitchen maybe acting like a cold store, so Harry's idea about the curtain is a great idea.

Swapping your single rads for doubles could be a fairly simple fix. as woody says, if the room isn't getting warm, that's not an insulation problem