I want it done cheap by people i can trust not to bodge it

[GwaiLo]

"but i really want it done, cheap by people i can trust not to bodge it!"

Was a comment I read elsewhere on the forum an I was wondering what others really thought of it.

As a surveyor I spend much of my time engaged as an expert witness when disputes arise between builders/tradesmen and tbier customers (invariably the customers chose the cheap guy). I also take great care to explain to my own clients, where I have designed and am supervising building work, that there is normally little to be gained from thinking "cheap" and much to be lost.

I reckon that most of us who work in the industry want to raise standards, but that means raising the standards of customers too. As long as the attitude displayed by the above comment prevails then the public will get exactly what it wants...Cheap....

What do you think we can do to raise the publics expectations so that they think "quality" at a competitive price, rather than who is the cheapest always? We all know that it is only this attitude that allows the cowboys to thrive.

Or...if you aren't in the industry do you really want "cheap"? You can't have a Rolls Royce job for Ford Fiesta prices, so if you demand low prices you will get low quality. This is particularly true in construction where anyone can call themselves a builder, plumber, electrician, etc and quality tradesmen simply cannot compete with cowboys.

Do you think ther should be some sort of regulation of the industry to ensure only competent people can charge for building related work? Bearing in mind that regulation will cost money and drive prices up further.

I am very interested in what others think.

 

[oilman]

.....anyone can call themselves a....

Difficult to define what's needed to set the level required for the title. The construction industry has its quirks like any other occupation, but bodgers exist in all fields, it's just more obvious for all to see when there's something to look at. When an accountant bodges, it's just a piece of paper to those outside, and difficult for most people to see. When a builder bodges, everyone has the chance to see the window frame that doesn't fit.

Years ago, when I was just out of college, people were going on about communication being the key. I've noticed no improvement, but I suspect some are still peddling the message. They might be right, but who listens? Likewise, people pay lip service to getting a quality job, not a cheap job, but will generally go for a low price.

I doubt people (including me) will change from trying to get something cheap, until the second time around. The problem is not having enough money to realise their "dreams", and there is no apparent financial justification for spending large amounts unless you are a property developer, or when you sell.

Even when people don't go for "cheap", it's no guarantee of better quality. I am dealing with a situation now where the customer paid a well known national company a large amount for a replacement boiler. It wasn't till I turned up 18 months later, that I saw it was installed incorrectly. We are talking to the manufacturers to see if we can find a reasonable solution.

Regulation will make a lot of low grade admin jobs, but I don't think it will make much improvement. I started this work because I needed an income, and markets had changed, so am I competent? There's lots I don't know, but I have to fix a lot of what larger companies with their quality organisations have left in their wake. This is confirmed by the manufacturers, who sometimes send me to the problem.

You probably know some well off builders who use low cost labour, but manage to "get away" with what they do, but you would not approve of. There are a lot of recent changes to the regulations, but some are not well thought through, and it won't stop bad work being done.

There's much more, but this'll do for now.

PS thanks for all the useful information you have posted.

 

[staylong]

I am home owner not someone who works in the industry. Over the years I have suffered due to cowboy builders many of whom came reccomended. Its seems to me the industry is so full of fly by nights that the public is pretty scared. Ok you have federation of builders or corgi trained etc. but still its sometimes hit and miss who you get.
Sometimes you think you have hired the best and halfway through a job you find a bunch of kids doing the work whilst the boss starts somewhere else because he's spread himself thin.

Some clever sod should start a web site like Fish4Tradesmen. that covers the country and local areas. When you move to a new area and don't know who is good or bad you can go to the site and read up on who's who in the area. If someone is hired through the site a small fee is paid and the tradesman also pays a small % to the site. Each completed job has feedback rather like the reviews on amazon.com
Over a period of time you would arrive at a league table of plumbers, sparks, chippies etc. in the local areas. It includes lists of proffesionals who can be called in on an emergency that dont cost the earth and who dont string the job out to maximise the hours.

For myself I decided years ago to learn as much as I can about my house and learn what I can and cannot tackle in the way of DIY. Armed with my Collins and Readers Digest DIY books and sites like these I have saved hundreds if not thousands of pounds. I have also found 'a few good men' who I know will give me a fair days work for a fair days pay but it has taken time and a few tears to achieve this balance.

 

[oilman]

Over a period of time you would arrive at a league table of .....

I'd come out as slow and expensive then.

..... that dont cost the earth and who dont string the job out to maximise the hours.

Confirmed . I'd be off the list .

Both of these two points severely affect the job, even if it isn't obvious.

"...dont cost the earth..." puts priority on price, "...dont string the job out..." puts priority on speed.

As you'll have noted, the nearer you get to finishing a task, the longer the elements take, for a smaller, visible return.

Some times it may be a matter of cash flow, I will try and explain the whole job as I see it, do the majority of work, point out what's left and arrange to do that at a later date. Almost planned maintenance.

......a fair days work for a fair days pay......

Again well meant, but price and time pressure. If the job is done well how much is it worth? If it's done badly, any amount of money was too much.

 

[staylong]

Oilman I agree with your comments. I've had work done that has taken ages because it needed the time. I was happy to pay the price because I knew and more importantly saw the care he put into his work and the quality of the finished product. I totally agree that it would be a mistake just to get someone in because they are quick and cheap. I am sure you will agree that most tradesmen get a good deal of their work by word of mouth. In a way thats what I was talking about via the web idea. Someone comming to an area at least has a site they could go to to get some information on local tradesmen. Maybe the league table comment was not so well thought out to admit but it was just an idea that someone else could refine. Would love to see a customer review page though. Whats wrong with giving someone a comment 'he is expensive but does a first class job' or 'charged me £120.00 to change a washer'. Or 'nice guy but rogered the hell out my wife whilst at work...'

 

[masona]

I see this as a no win situation,in general people are always looking for a bargain.

I think this government are destroying the building trades as so many students are now going to university and now there's a shortage of trademen's.You cannot get a plumbing apprentice in my area let alone others trade,so it encourage the one with no qualification,all of the sudden become 'jack of all trade' know it all cowboy's type, they see it an easy way to earn money and have no choice.

So, "I really want it done cheap by people i can trust not to bodge it",this can only be people who can't afford it or they're tight with their money.How do people do the work cheap ?, maybe a 2nd job ,on the dole, cash in hand, moonlighting, unemployable type ( I do know 2 non-english guy are working for a scaffold firm on £20 a day) again cheap labour.I know builders who keep their quotation down scared of losing the job and working 7 days a week to make up for it.Sadly the building trade is not what it used to be,that why I left years ago.This is happening everywhere and not just the building trade.

GwaiLo quoted:
"Do you think there should be some sort of regulation of the industry to ensure only competent people can charge for building related work? Bearing in mind that regulation will cost money and drive prices up further".
Yes I do, but like all others regulations,unworkable.From what I've seen,the more & more regulations are coming this way so people will ignore it.Look at some of the television programme where cowboys builder has been reported to watchdog then struck off and still working a year later.The biggest problem is nobody enforce the regulations,why, I have no idea maybe too much hassle or too many red tapes.Lets look at Part 'P' regulations,will it stop the diy'er working on electric ?,they wouldn't even know about it until they sell their house.No, I maybe wrong again,my friend just moved into a new property with a room in the roof and found out there's no planning permission was made,so why didn't the solicitor pick it up ? Maybe there are far too many regulations and confusing people,again what I'm saying what the point of regulations if people are getting away with it and shouldn't.

 

[GwaiLo]

I have to say that in many ways the current situation benefits me. Joe Public gives the job to the cheapest guy and if they are lucky everyone is happy. Quite often though the job starts and the price escalalates, or the quality is poor. Joe then talks to his solicitor and then I get employed (or Joe comes directly to me).

This problem doesn't really effect my other clients because they have drawings/specs done by me. Together we choose builders/tradesmen who I vet or know and we get them all to tender on a project where the time they have and the quality oif work has aldreadt been agreed.

But I do beleive there are reletively simple and inexpensive ways to improve things. I don't think we will ever get rid of cowboys, but I do think we can provide much better information and protection for the public.

Firstly I'd say that charging a lot of money doesn't make someone a cowboy. If you go into sainsburys and they want £30 for a can of beans you won't buy it, so shopping around and the market it what determines prices. What we need is some easy way for people to distinguish those who have the right skills.

For some trades and all professions this is already possible. Joe public only has to ask CORGI NECIEC etc if someone is registered and they will confirm he is or he isn't. These organisations also regularly inspect a proportion of thier members work, so some level a quality control is in place.

But unfortuntely Joe public often thinks that trade associations (Federation of Master Builders, Guild of Master Craftsmen, Etc) do the same thing. They don't realise that these bodies are not there to "Regulate" but to only to promote the interests of thier members.

It should be relatively easy to put in place legislation that requires those sort of institutions to have procedures for regulating standards and conduct and making those institutions liable if they do not admit someone who a court later decides was not competent and liable for the errors of thier members if they do not expel them once it has become apparent they are not competent. Then Joe public will know if he doesn't belong a one of those organisations he isn't competent, so if he uses them more fool him.

 

[oilman]

It is certainly worth the discussion. I do see a problem though. In my line (and I am surprised to some extent, that I can be deemed competent) there are registered people, so they are "competent", and yet they are driven by their employer's commercial interests to get a job "done" in less time than I consider it is possible to do it.

For example the average oil boiler gets serviced when it breaks down. It will take 1-1/2 to 2 hours to properly service an oil boiler, complete the paperwork tidy up etc. But some people are in and out in 1/2 hour. If a problem needs solving it could add an extra hour (or more).

This means the customer is not getting something they are entitled to, but they don't know what they should get anyway. I see boilers with parts damaged or missing from the last time they were serviced. I suspect the gas side is just as bad, and I know, as in oil, there are people making false claims about being registered.

 

[renovator]

There are a wide variety of drivers and issues within the question posed by gwailo and without trying to answer the whole problem I offer the following.

1. Scope of work.
Joe Public needs the ability to accurately define and document the scope of work to be executed. So when he asks for quotes, he may be clear that all providers are working to the same set of deliverables.

2. Quality
Joe Public needs the ability to accurately define "how good" the work must be. So when he ask for a set of quotes, he may be clear that all providers are working to the same level of quality.

3. Accountability
Joe Public needs the ability to enforce production of deliverables to agreed scope and quality. So when he appoints a contractor he is sure and capable of making that contractor accountable for adherence to what has been agreed.

If Joe Public has all of these capabilities, the price he chooses to pay is entirely within his control.

Building professionals need to recognise that Joe Public wants the result not the process.
So, ideally, low cost boilerplate style professional engagements would suit Joe Public and allow him to gain traction with respect to items [1] and [2].

Government need to recognise that Joe Public needs to be protected from fly-by-night and dodgy builders and act to redress the current situation where work can be quoted/committed and started but never completed to satisfaction.

The big bee in my bonnet is call out charges, but it is monday so dont get me down that rat hole.

 

[GwaiLo]

I agree entirely with your comments renovator and it is also a question of how much risk Joe Public is prepared to take. He needs to understand that nothing in life is risk free.

So far as low cost boilerplate style professional engagements are concerned they do exist. The two JCT contracts for Home Owner/Occupiers give a wide range of options and are available from W H Smith.

Under those Joe can engage a professional or agree with the builder to have a professional
Adjudicate in the event of a dispute.

 

[renovator]

So far as low cost boilerplate style professional engagements are concerned they do exist. The two JCT contracts for Home Owner/Occupiers give a wide range of options and are available from W H Smith.

The key issue is how to inform Joe Public about the availability and benefits of adopting these tools