Improving on TRV

[Dan Robinson]

You've questioned nothing but ignorance love.

 

[75pete]

Think I would do the simple and cheep fix and add TRV, see how that goes and if not good...
Love the banter and got to say that this forum ( plumbing & C Heating) stands or falls on the time and free advice given by the people on here.

 

[Agile]

Whatever sort of heat it is, doesn't it affect the temperature of the room? Of course, rule number one is not to put any thermostat where the sun shines. The extra delay due to the slow sensor in a TRV cannot be an advantage. The heating / cooling time of the room is there, whatever so no worries about 'smoothing out' any change in temperature. A room stat can be moved to a 'good' place in the room but a TRV is stuck where it is.

I have tried to explain to you but you don't seem to want to try to understand!

Let me repeat yet again!

A radiator take about 10 min to heat up and 20 min to cool down!

With that length of time to respond there is no advantage in a more rapidly responding control.

Even more so the slower response of the TRV actualy works together with the response time of the rad to better control the room temperature.

You will obviously be surprised but some heating engineers do actually have temperature monitors they can leave at premises to check the operation of the controls.

Tony

 

[Dan Robinson]

Indeed - I think my kit is well over £2000 worth. Not including the FGA which has two temperature probe connections and auditable reports.

Which reminds me... have to dig out one of the spare IR guns for my brother.... he's trying to get to grips with his new Aga, and he's cooking a big family Roast on Sunday .

 

[sophiecentaur]

Whatever sort of heat it is, doesn't it affect the temperature of the room? Of course, rule number one is not to put any thermostat where the sun shines. The extra delay due to the slow sensor in a TRV cannot be an advantage. The heating / cooling time of the room is there, whatever so no worries about 'smoothing out' any change in temperature. A room stat can be moved to a 'good' place in the room but a TRV is stuck where it is.

I have tried to explain to you but you don't seem to want to try to understand!

Let me repeat yet again!

A radiator take about 10 min to heat up and 20 min to cold down!

With that length of time to respond there is no advantage in a more rapidly responding control.

Even more so the slower response of the TRV actualy works together with the response time of the rad to better control the room temperature.

You will obviously be surprised but some heating engineers do actually have temperature monitors they can leave at premises to check the operation of the controls.

Tony

I am impressed that. at last, someone has actually come up with the fact that some heating engineers use temperature monitoring. It has taken more than 70 post for that piece of information to come out. Rag Tag and Bobtail seemed to think that temperature measurement is only for wimps and they shout pretty loud on this forum. Your bits of sense have been diluted by a large number of idiot postings from more immature contributors. Your ideas of control theory are not quite complete, which is why I didn't give your post much thought. Yes, I do understand the basis of what you are saying but response times of all elements in the loop are relevant. Just because it's hot water and pumps involved, the same basic theory applies to all feedback systems. (I don't fancy myself as an 'expert' in heating, all of a sudden because the same considerations apply in all sorts of fields of control.) In a good system, the radiators would maintain a steady temperature with a proportional control for the valve being held in one place until conditions change and the control would be critically damped - by design. An electronic thermometer will give a high open loop gain of the system. The gain would be known and an intelligent controller will adjust it for optimum. The software is available and easy to implement so I'd be surprised if it's not included.
As you seem to be so much in favour of TRVs, I take it that you don't think much of the idea of zones and the more modern approach for continuous fine tuning. I wonder why that is. Do you think that it's just a cynical bit of hi tech marketing?

 

[hazetimesfive]

Why not do weather comp and no trvs then. and stfu.

 

[Agile]

Of course I am in favour of zones!

The Evohome creates a zone for each rad! But that's extreme cost and involvement for geeks and not applicable for the average home owner who wants the cheapest quote which heats the house!

My friend has 26 zones in his house. All individually temperature controlled on the UFH.

Seven of them are in toilets though!

But then he used to teach HVAC at SBAC.

Tony

 

[Dan Robinson]

It has taken more than 70 post for that piece of information to come out

Perhaps some of us take it as a given

the more modern approach for continuous fine tuning

Hardly modern. And if a trv doesn't fine tune by definition, then I don't know what does.

Yes, I do understand the basis of what you are saying but response times of all elements in the loop are relevant. Just because it's hot water and pumps involved, the same basic theory applies to all feedback systems. (I don't fancy myself as an 'expert' in heating, all of a sudden because the same considerations apply in all sorts of fields of control.) In a good system, the radiators would maintain a steady temperature with a proportional control for the valve being held in one place until conditions change and the control would be critically damped - by design. An electronic thermometer will give a high open loop gain of the system. The gain would be known and an intelligent controller will adjust it for optimum.

Now there's some bolloocxs right there. Wikipedia? Or did you actually dream up that drivel?


BTW, would you like me to list my temperature monitoring equipment?

 

[sophiecentaur]

Now there's some bolloocxs right there. Wikipedia? Or did you actually dream up that drivel?

No. It's basic control theory that's been around since long before Wiki was invented. If you know nothing about control theory then don't knock it. ("Drivel" = " I don't understand it"?) Can I give you some references?
Ignorance is, of course, excusable but being proud of it is not.

 

[hazetimesfive]

troll theory maybe.

 

[Mikefromlondon]

Whatever sort of heat it is, doesn't it affect the temperature of the room? Of course, rule number one is not to put any thermostat where the sun shines. The extra delay due to the slow sensor in a TRV cannot be an advantage. The heating / cooling time of the room is there, whatever so no worries about 'smoothing out' any change in temperature. A room stat can be moved to a 'good' place in the room but a TRV is stuck where it is.

I have tried to explain to you but you don't seem to want to try to understand!

Let me repeat yet again!

A radiator take about 10 min to heat up and 20 min to cold down!

With that length of time to respond there is no advantage in a more rapidly responding control.

Even more so the slower response of the TRV actualy works together with the response time of the rad to better control the room temperature.

You will obviously be surprised but some heating engineers do actually have temperature monitors they can leave at premises to check the operation of the controls.

Tony

I am impressed that. at last, someone has actually come up with the fact that some heating engineers use temperature monitoring. It has taken more than 70 post for that piece of information to come out. Rag Tag and Bobtail seemed to think that temperature measurement is only for wimps and they shout pretty loud on this forum. Your bits of sense have been diluted by a large number of idiot postings from more immature contributors. Your ideas of control theory are not quite complete, which is why I didn't give your post much thought. Yes, I do understand the basis of what you are saying but response times of all elements in the loop are relevant. Just because it's hot water and pumps involved, the same basic theory applies to all feedback systems. (I don't fancy myself as an 'expert' in heating, all of a sudden because the same considerations apply in all sorts of fields of control.) In a good system, the radiators would maintain a steady temperature with a proportional control for the valve being held in one place until conditions change and the control would be critically damped - by design. An electronic thermometer will give a high open loop gain of the system. The gain would be known and an intelligent controller will adjust it for optimum. The software is available and easy to implement so I'd be surprised if it's not included.
As you seem to be so much in favour of TRVs, I take it that you don't think much of the idea of zones and the more modern approach for continuous fine tuning. I wonder why that is. Do you think that it's just a cynical bit of hi tech marketing?

Again totally agree with your post regarding response times, imagine self drive Google car senses a pedestrian crossing and it applies brakes 20 minutes later!
There are obviously idiots everywhere, who would still cross a road despite knowing not to trust self drive cars. Anything that man has made is prone to failure.

If I was taking a ride in self drive google car, i am sure I won't be taking a nap.

So now back to TRVs which are crude form of heating control, having them is better than not having them at all, but they would be of little use to my home heating since I don't control heating from any thermostat, my heating is on 24/7 since October and is likely to continue to run 24/7 till mid April, I just turn my boiler flow temperature right down to 35c and when the weather gets too cold outside I raise it to 45-50c, i have never taken it above 50c, keeps my house warm all around at around 19 - 20c, if I ever feel little cold, I switch on a 2kw fan heater for about 10 minutes in my bedroom. Boiler cycles around every 90 seconds for about 10 seconds on, and only on lowest burner flame, I worked out I am using about £4.00 worth of gas daily. plus add the daily standing charge of 30p on top. With this method of constant heating you don't get hot or cold spots, the whole house acquires even temperature as long as external doors and windows are shut and all internal doors are open.

 

[BigSnoopy01]

this post is funny and also full of total ******s. maybe i will see the end on dragons den with a sales pitch of some expensive control and Debra will pull a trv out her pocket and say this cost 9.99 and works im fekin out!! haha

 

[Dan Robinson]

Again totally agree with your post regarding response times, imagine self drive Google car senses a pedestrian crossing and it applies brakes 20 minutes later!

Ah, but again, you don't understand the nature of the response time definition. And it seems neither does Tony. Keep going though .


Oh, and spooling out chunks poorly written text in the attempt to sound cleverer than you are doesn't wash.

 

[DaveHerns]

Wouldn't Mike from London's method make his boiler wear out quicker ?

 

[shambolic]

What's your electric bill Mike running an electric fan heater.
And £4 a day for gas X 365 days is quite expensive.