integrated lcd lights

[leafyman]

Hi,
I have four very old fashioned fluorescent 5ft tubes lighting up my garage. I want to replace them with LEDs. Having got myself confused over magnetic ballasts and separate led drivers I've decided that integral luminaires are the way to go - if I'm right that these will just need connecting to the 230v lighting circuit.

Toolstation have a 1000 lumen, 14w round bulkhead with a bulbous cover which should throw out a good spread of light. How many of these would I need to provide an equivalent light to the existing 5ft tubes? They have 58w energy usage each.

If there are other luminaires I should consider, please let me know. I note the Toolstation one seems to be unbranded.

 

[flameport]

A 58w fluorescent is typically about 5000 lumen when new, less as it ages.
With 4 of them, in theory that would mean 20 of the round bulkhead fittings for the same light output.

However that all assumes you actually need that much illumination, and there are other factors to consider such as how the light is distributed.

How big is this garage, and what is it used for?

 

[ianniann]

As downlights, LEDs can usually manage with fewer lumens than fluorescents (reflector inefficiency, etc.). Might also be quite a bit less than 5,000 lumens if there is a magnetic ballast in those old tubes. Still need an awful lot of those little LED fittings. Fluorescents put out a lot of light. You'll need to find something approaching the same power level of LEDs, perhaps 150W - 200W. Do you have any preference for dozens of downlights vs a few big long tubes? You might want to consider LED panels for lighting a large area, not exactly domestic-cosy but very effective.

 

[leafyman]

It's about 20 x 16 feet. There are a fair amount of shelving around and, of course, a freezer. So, if we say that there is about 16x14 feet of space to be illuminated we'd be about right.
It is used for my diy projects and general storage. The existing lights are placed two by two lengthways, if you see what I mean, and I think that if I put the new ones across the shorter span, 6 good lights would do the trick. I hope so, anyway.
Thanks for your reply.

 

[leafyman]

I'd never heard of led panel lights so I've googled them a bit. So far I like the idea of the leds being around the outer of the frame. That could be pretty efficient of spreading the light around. Of course, they do seem more expensive than the bulkhead type and it seems that each light has to have its own fixing frame to put it up on the ceiling. Hmm

 

[ban-all-sheds]

... the leds being around the outer of the frame ...

 

[333rocky333]

I'd never heard of led panel lights so I've googled them a bit. So far I like the idea of the leds being around the outer of the frame. That could be pretty efficient of spreading the light around. Of course, they do seem more expensive than the bulkhead type and it seems that each light has to have its own fixing frame to put it up on the ceiling. Hmm

although there leds are internally around the edge. you do not see them, when on the light is even across the whole panel.
Go in your local tesco express if you want to see them, surface fitting could be a pain, stick to 5ft led batten fittings

 

[ban-all-sheds]

surface fitting could be a pain

Not if you buy ones designed to be fitted like that? Or a proper frame to surface fix a recessed one?

 

[securespark]

https://www.led-supplies.com/led-panels/white/led-panel-light-600-x-600mm-4000k/

Surface frames here:

https://trade.ledhut.co.uk/commerci...f4J1hq6DXsuXtEsvxQcLChbAfxETMZbAH7RoCOzDw_wcB

 

[ericmark]

I had the old 64W fat tubes in kitchen, they are no longer made and using 58W tubes they do work but short life, loads of wife's stuff under light so swapping fitting was not easy, so easy way out was a 24W LED tube, this dropped the lumen from around 5000 to 2400 which seems a huge drop, and yes it is slightly dimmer than before, however there is enough light and I have got away with it. I think you may find the same, main reason for fluorescent was the spread of light rather than amount of light.

As downlights, LEDs can usually manage with fewer lumens than fluorescents (reflector inefficiency, etc.). Might also be quite a bit less than 5,000 lumens if there is a magnetic ballast in those old tubes. Still need an awful lot of those little LED fittings. Fluorescents put out a lot of light. You'll need to find something approaching the same power level of LEDs, perhaps 150W - 200W. Do you have any preference for dozens of downlights vs a few big long tubes? You might want to consider LED panels for lighting a large area, not exactly domestic-cosy but very effective.

I have tried fluorescent (Cold Cathode) down lights, and to be frank they were useless, I think size matters with a light, be it a compact fluorescent or any other folded tube they will not work as well as same light emitted over a larger distance, I know in theory a surface lamp is a down lighter, but I think most people consider down lighters to be let into the ceiling tile, from what I am led to understand the magnetic ballast is like the tungsten lamp and being phased out, so really we do need to compare with HF electronic ballast and that means tubes last about same time as LED and so it's 95 lumen per watt compared with 100 lumen per watt which in real terms is nothing, and fluorescent is far cheaper than LED specially when considering replacement tube cost, I think the LED looks better, and strikes quicker, and in a kitchen yes move to LED, but in a garage I would keep fluorescent if you need that light output, and just move to HF ballast units.

 

[ianniann]

I think magnetic ballasts are officially dead now, should have happened a decade ago. Nevertheless, a great many people still have them since they were standard-issue until very recently, with the electronic ones a "premium" item FFS. Anyway, people fed up with useless fluorescents are even more likely to have an old lump of iron driving their fat flickering dimly-glowing tubes. A retrofit LED with much lower power can be a revelation. Or not, depending on whether they are looking for ambient light, directed light, etc. I still get surprised by how bright an LED lamp appears, then how poorly it seems to light up an actual room. Big learning curve. Items like the LED panels are good for actually lighting a room like fluorescent tubes used to, but not so great as a reading light

 

[333rocky333]

Afaik magnetic ballasts did not conform to EU rules, UK redesighned theres and rebranded them "Low Loss Ballasts", however as UK was only ones tending to use them, most export companies stopped using them, Thorn I think was the latest company to stop using them in fleurescent fittings , but still seem to use them in there 16watt 2D fittings.

 

[ianniann]

Just checked and magnetic ballasts are still legal. Happy days! As of April 13th they are banned. Most manufacturers have given up on them ahead of this.

The previous, and current for a little while, regulations date back to 2005. The rules for magnetic and electronic ballasts were essentially the same, a required efficiency level. All electronic ballasts met the requirements easily, and essentially any magnetic ballast that the manufacturers wanted to could meet them too. Older designs were too inefficient but in practice there was no visible change when shopping for a light. New regulations in 2009 made essentially no change. I don't know what the retail situation was in the rest of Europe but the regulations were not specific to the UK. I was in the US at the time and magnetic ballasts were already long gone over there.

The lobbying by big copper concerns ahead of the final 2005 regulations was pretty obscene, with highly misleading and in some cases just deceptive representations which apparently the EU bureaucrats fell for. Earlier drafts had essentially banned magnetic ballasts, hence my personal thought that they should have been history over 10 years ago, not in a couple more months.

Off-topic, but a similar situation now exists for "directional halogen" lamps. Halogen spotlights are, as of September last year, banned but only lamps below energy class B. In practice this means that GU10's and R50/63/80s are history, but MR11/16s are relatively unaffected as many were already class B. General reporting of this has been very unclear so maybe this helps to get the message out.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Afaik magnetic ballasts did not conform to EU rules

So will there be a bunch of gleeful manufacturers restarting production, and a bunch of equally gleeful purchasers buying them, when we have left the EU?

Or will this turn out to be just one of the countless "EU rules" things that in reality makes sense, one of the mythical "take back control" benefits, one of the "independence from faceless EU bureaucracy" chimeras for which we will gladly pay the price of generations-long economic misery?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

In practice this means that GU10's and R50/63/80s are history, but MR11/16s are relatively unaffected as many were already class B. General reporting of this has been very unclear so maybe this helps to get the message out.

Here is another message to get out:

Nearly all GU10s are MR16s. Some are MR11s.