Is moving a light switch in the kitchen allowed/notifiable?

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Never mind what you would prefer - do you believe that Schedule 4 makes the replacement of a 10.5kW shower by a 7.5kW one notifiable?

I could go either way.
I would read MI of appliance, if the MI stated that 7.5kW shower should be on 32A MCB and protected by 30mA RCD.
And if either or both of those devices on the existing circuit supplying the shower needed to be either changed or installed.
I would notify.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Never mind what you would prefer - do you believe that Schedule 4 makes the replacement of a 10.5kW shower by a 7.5kW one notifiable?

What would you do? more to the point as actual answering questions is not your strong point!

 

[acmedone]

What's so special about a kitchen?

That's obvious.

Kitchens are frequently replaced/renovated, so there is much electrical work done by (possibly) kitchen fitters that the electricians want to be theirs.

Have you never wondered why the same rules don't apply to utility rooms?

If you ever do, ask yourself how many people have utility rooms compared to the number who have kitchens.

I didn't know kitchens and utility rooms were treated differently. Does make the regs look a bit smelly.

The rules allow for sockets to be scattered around the worktop that are in easy reach of the sink.

Actually they don't.

300mm isn't it? I've never seen an example of a refit done since '05.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

300mm isn't it? I've never seen an example of a refit done since '05.

It's a guideline rather than a regulation/requirement.
at least 300mm from sink and drainer.
Common sense is a factor in this.

 

[JohnW2]

Anyway, you haven't answered my question about your personal interpretation - would you consider that replacing a 10.5kW shower with a 7.5kW one (clearly not 'like for like') was notifiable or not.

I personally would.

How does that fit in with your view that 'logical thought' should be applied in interpreting the law's meaning of "replacement"? I can understand your logical thought feeling that replacing with a higher powered shower should be notifiable, but why with a lower power one?

In fact I would personally prefer if all replacement, renewals, upgrades etc.. of hard-wired electrical equipment were deemed notifiable. But that's me!

You're obviously free to express your views as to how the law should have been written (even though it wasn't). I suspect that you also 'would prefer' that all cable replacement and circuit extensions were notifiable. Unles I'm mistaken, adding that all together means that you are simply expressing a view that all electrical work should be notifiable - is that the case?

Kind Regards, John.

 

[JohnW2]

Never mind what you would prefer - do you believe that Schedule 4 makes the replacement of a 10.5kW shower by a 7.5kW one notifiable?

I could go either way. I would read MI of appliance, if the MI stated that 7.5kW shower should be on 32A MCB and protected by 30mA RCD. And if either or both of those devices on the existing circuit supplying the shower needed to be either changed or installed. I would notify.

Have you not moved the goalposts? IF MCB or RCD needed to be changed/installed, would that change/installation of a protective device not be the reason (which some people might question!) for the notifiability, rather than the shower replacement?

Also, to be pedantic, if the shower were rated as 7.5kW at 230V, but the MI called for a 32A MCB, you could have a problem/dilemma. Since the design current of equipment rated as 7.5KW at 230V is 32.6A, protection of that circuit with a 32A MCB would be non-compliant with BS7671

Kind Regards, John.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

I can understand your logical thought feeling that replacing with a higher powered shower should be notifiable, but why with a lower power one?

(c)re-fixing or replacing enclosures of existing installation components, where the circuit protective measures are unaffected;
It could be possible they will be

I suspect that you also 'would prefer' that all cable replacement and circuit extensions were notifiable. Unles I'm mistaken, adding that all together means that you are simply expressing a view that all electrical work should be notifiable - is that the case?

That would be my view John, maybe not all but most!
But my view counts for very little in the grand scheme of things.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Also, to be pedantic, if the shower were rated as 7.5kW at 230V, but the MI called for a 32A MCB, you could have a problem/dilemma.

Surely, that must have been calculated at 240V otherwise the MIs wouldn't have stated 32A.

 

[JohnW2]

I can understand your logical thought feeling that replacing with a higher powered shower should be notifiable, but why with a lower power one?

(c)re-fixing or replacing enclosures of existing installation components, where the circuit protective measures are unaffected; It could be possible they will be

It's I(a), we're talkikng about, not 1(c) - and (perhaps rather surprisingly) 1(a) does not mention anything about circuit protective devices being unaffected.

I suspect that you also 'would prefer' that all cable replacement and circuit extensions were notifiable. Unles I'm mistaken, adding that all together means that you are simply expressing a view that all electrical work should be notifiable - is that the case?

That would be my view John, maybe not all but most!

That's what I thought, and it's a perfectly valid view, even if a good few probably disagree. You say "maybe not all, but most", but I find it hard to imagine what you might feel could be non-notifiable - any examples??

Kind Regards, John.

 

[JohnW2]

Also, to be pedantic, if the shower were rated as 7.5kW at 230V, but the MI called for a 32A MCB, you could have a problem/dilemma.

Surely, that must have been calculated at 240V otherwise the MIs wouldn't have stated 32A.

One might hope so - but have you never found anything wrong in MIs?

There's also the question (to which I've never been sure of the answer) of whether the 'design current' of a circuit relates to what the current would be at nominal supply voltage, or whether it should take account of the maximum permitted supply voltage. I assume you think the former?

Kind Regards, John.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

SCHEDULE 4
Descriptions of Work where no Building Notice or Deposit of Full Plans Required

a)replacing any fixed electrical equipment which does not include the provision of—


(i)any new fixed cabling, or



So looking at a(i)
If what BAS is harping on about, we can stop there and do anything we want other than put new fixed cables in!

and what you are saying is that re-fixing or replacing enclosures of existing installation components, where the circuit protective measures are unaffected. Does not define electrical equipment.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

, but I find it hard to imagine what you might feel could be non-notifiable - any examples??

Kind Regards, John.

I am happy with lamp replacements, I wont suggest plug or FCU fuses as this can be dangerous to the cable if not rated correctly.

 

[JohnW2]

SCHEDULE 4
Descriptions of Work where no Building Notice or Deposit of Full Plans Required
a)replacing any fixed electrical equipment which does not include the provision of—
(i)any new fixed cabling, or
So looking at a(i), If what BAS is harping on about, we can stop there and do anything we want other than put new fixed cables in!

I'm sure he will answer for himself, but clearly not "anything we want". It has to be arguably a 'replacement' - so we have to remove something and then put something (probably fairly similar) in it's place. One can't (under this clause) add a new bit of fixed equipment where there was nothing before.

...and what you are saying is that re-fixing or replacing enclosures of existing installation components, where the circuit protective measures are unaffected. Does not define electrical equipment.

This is surely fairly clear - 1(a) is about fixed electrical equipment, but 1(c) is about enclosures?

Kind Regards, John.

 

[JohnW2]

... but I find it hard to imagine what you might feel could be non-notifiable - any examples??

I am happy with lamp replacements, I wont suggest plug or FCU fuses as this can be dangerous to the cable if not rated correctly.

Although your justification is obviously technically correct, are you seriously suggesting that replacing the fuse in an FCU or plug should be notifiable?

Kind Regards, John.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

(probably fairly similar)

dangerous grounds using term like that!

This is surely fairly clear - 1(a) is about fixed electrical equipment, but 1(c) is about enclosures?

Is it?
As you can see not to me!

So I have new shower to fit at dear old lady's tomorrow, she wants a nice new 10.5kW shower installed as she is not happy with the performance of her existing 7.2kW shower, the circuit is 4.00mm T&E and the protective device is a 32B MCB.
The law according to schedule 4 allows me to put this shower with a 50A MCB in, providing I do not replace the cable for new? bearing in mind BS7671 is not a legal document.
Once I have completed the work and been paid, I can then feel happy I have conformed to the law according to Sch4 and sleep at night!
So if that is the case and schedule 4 was no requirements regarding the safe protection of cables, I will not consider it a safe document and continue to do things safely regardless of what that so called legal documents states and just notify everything I do.