Is verbal planning permission legal?

[chappers]

As I indicated, our building inot itself listed but is in the curtilage of a grade 2 listed farmhouse - the farm buildings around the courtyard were turned into housing. The insides can be altered but the exteriors supposedly cannot. The 'original' external fabric in this case is what the builder got permission for back in 1992. NYM conservation area planning is also active.

so are you saying your house is in what was the curtilage of a listed building?
Was your house converted before or after the listing was applied and were those out buildings constructed prior to 1948.
If you are in a conservation area then you will need PP for most external changes. Depending on the answer to the above will depend on whether you would need LBC.
If the farmhouse was listed when your house was created and the building that was converted to your house was built prior to 1948, then LBC would have been needed and your house will essentially be covered by the listing of the main farmhouse. LBC would be needed to alter your property further than that which has already been granted under the original LBC. Depending on the works being carried out PP and BC may also be required.
All of the above would have to be in writing using the prescribed official documents and be open for public scrutiny, there is no such thing as verbal permission, however a planning officer could verbally tell someone that something was PD and didn't require PP.

 

[meditek]

so are you saying your house is in what was the curtilage of a listed building?

Was your house converted before or after the listing was applied and were those out buildings constructed prior to 1948.

I am saying both houses (mine and the neighbour's ARE in the curtilage of the listed farmhouse which was listed at the time of conversion). The outbuildings (now dwellings) in the curtilage were built in around 1850.

If you are in a conservation area then you will need PP for most external changes. Depending on the answer to the above will depend on whether you would need LBC.
If the farmhouse was listed when your house was created and the building that was converted to your house was built prior to 1948, then LBC would have been needed and your house will essentially be covered by the listing of the main farmhouse. LBC would be needed to alter your property further than that which has already been granted under the original LBC. Depending on the works being carried out PP and BC may also be required.
All of the above would have to be in writing using the prescribed official documents and be open for public scrutiny, there is no such thing as verbal permission, however a planning officer could verbally tell someone that something was PD and didn't require PP.

As I think I have already said several times the bloke next door has gone ahead with many changes which we were verbally refused permission for and NYM have simply ignored my emails and phone calls to planning and refused me an 'interview'. I am about to put in a formal complaint and seek a FOI report on the matter. I have the distinct feeling of erroneous advice being covered up.

 

[clifford1]

On a point of information, "verbal" means using words. It can be written or spoken.
The word for non-written communication using speech is "oral".

Non-verbal communication might include a thumbs up or down, or raised fist, or perhaps just someone's stance.

 

[meditek]

On a point of information, "verbal" means using words. It can be written or spoken.
The word for non-written communication using speech is "oral".

Non-verbal communication might include a thumbs up or down, or raised fist, or perhaps just someone's stance.

Thanks, I never knew that.
Does seem odd though that verbal abuse and tossing rude written notes at someone are one and the same and writing a letter is verbal communication.
It seems Collins Dict hold a different view :-

1. adjective [usually ADJECTIVE noun]
You use verbal to indicate that something is expressed in speech rather than in writing or action.
They were jostled and subjected to a torrent of verbal abuse.
We have a verbal agreement with her.
The West must back up its verbal support with substantial economic aid.

while Oxford sits on the fence :-

It is sometimes said that the true sense of the adjective verbal is ‘of or concerned with words’, whether spoken or written (as in verbal abuse), and that it should not be used to mean ‘spoken rather than written’ (as in a verbal agreement). For this sense, it is said that the adjective oral should be used instead. In practice, however, verbal is well established in this sense and, in certain idiomatic phrases (such as a verbal agreement), cannot be simply replaced by oral.

 

[Nakajo]

Yes, whatever the derivation, a thing 'verbally-agreed' is obviously a spoken (as opposed to a written) agreement. A tomato is a fruit, but don't stick it in your fruit salad (unless you want to).

 

[garyo]

Ah the wonderful progression of language. One of my favourites is the new/additional definition of literally being 'not literally' :-S

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/literally

 

[^woody^]

On a point of information, "verbal" means using words. It can be written or spoken.
The word for non-written communication using speech is "oral".

Non-verbal communication might include a thumbs up or down, or raised fist, or perhaps just someone's stance.

Everything discussed in this thread has been verbal then?

 

[chappers]

As I think I have already said several times the bloke next door has gone ahead with many changes which we were verbally refused permission for and NYM have simply ignored my emails and phone calls to planning and refused me an 'interview'. I am about to put in a formal complaint and seek a FOI report on the matter. I have the distinct feeling of erroneous advice being covered up.

hmm that doesn't mean that permission might not be granted for them then just because someone told you they thought not. Nor does it mean that your neighbour has carried out illegal works. the only way to find out would be to test them with the relevant applications. Also doesn't mean they wouldn't fall under PP, BC or LBC.
the one thing you could be sure of is that if LBC was required and it failed to satisfy the requirements it would have to be removed.

 

[lucylincoln]

I might be wrong, but I agree with most of the members on here doubting that verbal permission is valid. What you really need is the listed building consent (LBC) and regular meetings with your local conservation officer to check that everything is going as planned. You've mentioned that the exterior is under conservation but there are also often other 'integral' features that cannot be altered without permission. I had a quick search on Google and found this blog post about listed building extensions, it's obviously not exactly the same thing, but all of the concepts are relevant, like listed building condition surveys etc https://www.ernestbarnesltd.co.uk/5-things-youmust-consider-listed-building-extension/

 

[motorbiking]

yes as stated, the term is Oral, not Verbal. People often talk of verbal agreements, when they mean oral. A verbal agreement is one in words an Oral one is spoken.

I'd have thought the following legislation would cause the council issue for failure to consult on the application:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/8/contents

Forget your FOI request, your complaint is that they have not responded to your request for consultation and information relating to a potentially unlawful development. Perhaps contact the planning enforcer.

 

[Ian H]

I asked my missus for oral but ended up getting verbal

 

[meditek]

I think I have discovered what happens when something changes and no planning permission can be found. I assumed this to be due a verbal 'nod' but it has a nastier smell than that as it seems large landowners and builders use it with relative impunity. Here is the scenario :-
1. No permission is applied for
2. The change is simply made
3. A complaint is made or not made. If made
4. a letter comes back from planning saying no further action will be taken along with a feeble reason.
Either way the thing gets built, painted or modified with no planning application thus removing neighbours, parish councils and the right of appeal . etc from the equation in a totalitarian fashion. I have two fairly recent examples of this method being used by NYM planning 'enforcement'.
5. if not made then it becomes a fait accompli.

meditek

 

[meditek]

Strange lack of response! Is this how it is done now in this apology for a country? Must be careful in future not to step on anyone's toes. May upset the equilibrium.