Length of 15mm pipe instead of an Auto Balancing Valve?

[bengasman]

I just want to have some ideas so that when I get someone round I can have an "educated" discussion with them.

You are wasting your time, and more likely than not pis off any decent rgi that you manage to get in the door.
The only thing more annoying than a customer questioning my judgement and trying to tell me what to do, is a customer questioning my bill and trying to tell me that it should be less.

When I bring my car to the garage, I don't want an educated discussion with the mechanic. I want him to tell me how long it will take and how much it will cost, and then I go about my business and let him deal with the car.
That's what I pay him for.

 

[Nige F]

what - you know how intricate gas boilers work and don`t know about cars . I know sweet FA about gas but saved £ thousands over the years servicing my own cars - and rebuilding bikes

 

[bengasman]

what - you know how intricate gas boilers work and don`t know about cars

I know a fair bit about cars; more than enough not wanting to have to bother with a modern car unless I have ample time on my hands and a fully equipped garage. I remember hearing the auxillary belt squeeking the first winter I had it, and opening the bonnet to tighten it up a bit.
Took me about 3 minutes to find it but only 3 seconds to decided I didn't want to do it myself. ( and that included 2.8 seconds of swearing )

 

[ChrisR]

jrldallas wrote:

I just want to have some ideas so that when I get someone round I can have an "educated" discussion with them.

You are wasting your time, and more likely than not pis off any decent rgi that you manage to get in the door.

I don't work that way. Many of my best customers appreciate being told what's going on so they understand what I'm doing and why. With old cronky systems such as jrldallas describes, there are a lot of unknowns.

The problems of Suprima 120s, auto bypass valves and resistive clogged systems aren't even slightly hard to explain to a fairly bright electrical engineer. It would take several minutes.

If I had a problem and asked for explanations of what the issue might be, and was told I probably had tried to take a miserly approach so it was my fault, I'd feel the need for a pencil, and an urge to poke it through the eyeball of the idiot who'd decided that I needed to be insulted.
(I would hope that he would then see the point.)

Similarly, if I were told that I shouldn't be asking about my system, or bothering my little head with it, injury might be imminent, but not to me.
Are you seriously suggesting anyone would agree to just keep paying without knowing what for, or how much might be needed to complete the job?

I know Tony (Agile) and Ben personally, and can't imagine that they would deal that way with me if my problem were something they could help with.
I don't know what this forum does to otherwise rational people!

JRD - your pump's too small, even a 15-60 would be marginal, and the pipework on a typical Suprima 120 installation is definitely on the small side. Really they're better with a "small commercial" pipework approach rather than "small domestic".
The problem is generally of getting the heat out of the box quickly enough, especially when valves around the system close.
Sludge obviously makes things worse.

A bypass is important to an S120. It has two functions, one to provide a heat-losing route, and the other to allow enough flow through the boiler that its own thermostat sees a representative temperature quickly, so can control the boiler.

An automatic bypass is one which opens at a set pressure , so (from the pump's pressure/flow curve) you can guarantee a particular minimum flow through the boiler at all times. If you have a fixed short-circuit type bypass, it reduces the pressure (like voltage) when you don't want it to, and may not allow enough flow (current) when IT is the only route available.

Flow problems in heating systems are difficult in that you can't stick an ammeter in, or tell what pressure (like voltage) the pump's producing. But you CAN measure temperatures and with some thought work out where the problem appears to be. Eg, is the boiler really overheating, or is it faulty...?


See - I could have said all that in less than 2 minutes.

 

[steve32]

re the pump. It is a Grundfos and UPS 15-50 130.

No it's not the correct pump.

The pump should be a Grundfos 25-55 min or better still a 32-80.
As you have an under sized pump the pipework is more than likely under sized.

 

[DP]

Welcome back Chris. Nice to see you posting again.

 

[DP]

Steve32. this is what happens to me when I speed read. Thanks for pointing my slip up.

 

[DP]

With a name like that, would not have expected any sense coming from you messy. Does your social work know you are playing with his computer? Guess he forgot to give you your medication too. Two posts and what anger. Can see you going to the doghouse soon.


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Abusive posts from Messia have been deleted. Mod
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[bengasman]

Many of my best customers appreciate being told what's going on so they understand what I'm doing and why.

A lot of people like to know what the problem is, what the best solution is and how you do it. Most people do appreciate it when I apologise for not being able to tell them all that without a cup of coffee to keep the vocal cords lubricated.
As long as they are not totally incapable of understandinig technical stuff, I am happy to answer all questions they may have ( within the time it takes me to drink the coffee ), and after that they can look over my shoulder and hand me tools and parts, or video it to show their brother in law if they want.

What I don't entertain, is people that want me to justfify my solution because their mate said the problem was such and the answer was so. If you don't trust my abilities, don't hire me to solve your problem.

 

[DP]

What I don't entertain, is people that want me to justfify my solution because their mate said the problem was such and the answer was so. If you don't trust my abilities, don't hire me to solve your problem.

Hear, hear.

 

[DP]

Good on you mod, there is no need to be nasty and rude. Bit of humour is good, gentle exchange of mild words acceptable, but to join the forum and start being nasty right away, well that is out of order

 

[bengasman]

Must have been one of the old trolls

 

[Agile]

I always explain what is wrong and what I propose to do to correct the fault and how much its going to cost.

A week ago a landlord called me to repair a boiler in a rented flat above his shop. I had fixed the boiler before and came at no extra cost the same day which was a Saturday.

Unfortunately it needed a pump which I did not have with me and another part which I had on order. I asked the Landlord to leave the payment with the tenant and said I could come late that evening or the following day. I heard nothing for four days!

When he finally called me he wanted a discount even though I had already told him that I had not charged the extra for a weekend visit. By then I had been thinking that I was going to need to use debt collectors or court action to recover our diagnostic fee. So I was pleased that I could avoid all that hassle and agreed to reduce the total cost by £21 to £150. His desire to pay £21 less left the tenants without hot water for a week! If I was the tenant I would be witholding rent if I knew the landlord was not bothering to get it fixed the same day.

Normally I never reduce our prices because they are already reasonable but in this case I was relieved to have him back on board and I am aware that his ethic origin always expect people to over charge and then reduce the costs. I had quite a long conversations with a kabab shop owned a few months ago when I had refused to repair his boiler again after he had not paid me fully before. I hope he was overcharged by whomever he called.