Glad I dont live darn sarf then.
Maybe of interest to competent DIYers...
- Thread starter Dippy
- Start date
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Before I was registered I did some work down Pompey way - the LA there operated a similar scheme. If I sent in my certs they would decide if I was competent and them just let me pay the fee and send in the EIC afterwards. No inspection nothing. Nothing for them to do other than collect the money. Try some London Councils at over £350 - makes £500 to register a breeze
[EDIT]
Apologies - I thought I had refreshed when I replied wihout quoting....
[/EDIT]
Apologies - I thought I had refreshed when I replied wihout quoting....
[/EDIT]
2 references from whom, and why, and what qualifications?
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The 2 references are from 2 people or organisations you have worked for. I believe the minimum qualification is a DISQ including Part P. The more C & G's the better. You have to write aletter to the chief of building control enclosing all your certificates and outline your experience. They call it their 'competent persons scheme' and I would guess it has very little credence in law. Basically the scheme penalises all diy'ers who have to pay nearly £300 to notify under part P. Previously they were prepared to see just the certificates without a letter or referees. If yoou hunt thro the Portsmouth City Council you can see the building control charges. However it is fairer to sparkies as many other councils charge hefty fees whatever your circumstances
O
oompah
The scrubs?
Sorry guys, the reason for the late reply is
a) I don't usually read the forum at the weekend
b) I hadn't expected much interest!
To answer the general sentiment of the replies:
Firstly, as has been noted, LABCs vary (apparently). So whilst I managed this in my area (West Berks), others may not. Also I can quite believe that circumstances came into too, such as the person assigned to my BC request and workload etc.
Secondly please don't think that I have done this primarily to save the cost of hiring an electrician. The main reason is that I am doing a LOT of work and it needs a lot of design (especially my lighting system), so to involve an electrician and expect him/her to do exactly what I want would probably be difficult.
Thirdly I think this is only economic/feasible for large scale work. Since I am building an extension, the BC fees were already accounted for - I did not have to pay extra for the electrical notification. Then I had to do a LOT of work (see below) to reach my current situation. It is simply not worth it and would be too expensive for minor works.
Anyway - so here's what I did:
When I bought my current house in 2006, I knew that I wanted to change some of the electrics (not only for the extension), but was only vaguely aware of part P. So the first task was for me to research it (including joining this forum). Once I had done so I came very close to deciding that I would NOT do any of the work myself. However I guess I was interested in the challenge so I went ahead.
My research had been flawed - I didn't know that part P had been revised (doh!) so I took the requirement about documentation to heart. Being an ex-design engineer from regulated industry, my idea of good documentation means detail (warning to those who want to follow my example). So I decided to start and maintain a "record of electrical works" for my house. I will put this on my website when I get a chance. It is currently well over 100 pages!!!
Seeing that I had no certification for my installation, and the PIR label on my CU was blank, it was clear to me that I needed to do a PI. Having never done this before, this required a lot more research and preparation. Also I decided I needed a decent multifunction tester so I got my Robin off e-bay and then got it calibrated (another warning to those who want to do this - another not insignificant expense).
So I started to build the document. I started with some sections about the procedures I would follow for planning, design, testing etc. This included a statement about who will do it (me) and why I am competent. Here I included my academic and vocational qualifications in electrical/electronic engineering, and also my relevant electrical engineering work experience (all industrial). I also decided to mention that I am a Chartered Electrical Engineer and a corporate member of the IET (which I wouldn't be except for the fact that it is the only way for me to maintain my CEng status which I worked hard to get).
Next I added the results of my PI as a proper written report (including things like estimating the length of cable runs and comparing them with typical values of copper resistance per metre to the continuity measurements taken) and included the IET standard PIR. I also created a set of wiring diagrams as best I could.
By the time I had done this, I desperately needed to do some non-notifiable mods in the garage and loft. So I decided that I would follow a proper engineering design process for this. So I included written descriptions of things like requirements, planning (selection of materials, safe working etc), design (generally how I will meet the regs), installation (exactly what I did), test results & certification and validation.
The last section before I send this document to my LABC was a section on the 'major' works for my extenstion and other alterations. Here I primarily listed my requirements and what I wanted to do, and clearly defined which parts were notifiable. When I sent it to the LABC I directed them to read this section as the notification, and the use the rest of the document as demonstration of my competence.
The only reply I got was "so you're a competent person who is not registered with a self-certification scheme"? Which I confirmed.
That was a few months ago. Since then I have discussed a few issues with my LABC about fire protection, holes in joists etc, but we never discussed inspection. So since I am soon to change my CU, I thought I'd ask them about what they wanted to inspect. The answer was, as I have stated, that they will not inspect anything as they are happy that I have demonstrated my competence.
So that's it. Maybe there is some luck involved, but mainly it has been a lot of hard work on my part. Maybe my document is overkill, however as any other design engineer should agree, the act of writing things down and reviewing it does wonders for the design process, especially when it is done in phases.
Anyone who wants to follow should probably take most note of the fact that:
a) I can offer genuine qualifications (HNC & degree) to demonstrate my knowledge
b) I can offer electrical engineering work experience (including designing safety systems in the petrochem industry) to demonstrate related experience
c) I performed a full PI with test results and wiring diagrams, plus detailed information about work I had done to my installation as further evidence of my competence
d) I was able to convey all this to the LABC through the creation of my document, which was relatively easy for me because I have done countless similar documents during my experience as a design engineer
I hope this helps.
a) I don't usually read the forum at the weekend
b) I hadn't expected much interest!
To answer the general sentiment of the replies:
Firstly, as has been noted, LABCs vary (apparently). So whilst I managed this in my area (West Berks), others may not. Also I can quite believe that circumstances came into too, such as the person assigned to my BC request and workload etc.
Secondly please don't think that I have done this primarily to save the cost of hiring an electrician. The main reason is that I am doing a LOT of work and it needs a lot of design (especially my lighting system), so to involve an electrician and expect him/her to do exactly what I want would probably be difficult.
Thirdly I think this is only economic/feasible for large scale work. Since I am building an extension, the BC fees were already accounted for - I did not have to pay extra for the electrical notification. Then I had to do a LOT of work (see below) to reach my current situation. It is simply not worth it and would be too expensive for minor works.
Anyway - so here's what I did:
When I bought my current house in 2006, I knew that I wanted to change some of the electrics (not only for the extension), but was only vaguely aware of part P. So the first task was for me to research it (including joining this forum). Once I had done so I came very close to deciding that I would NOT do any of the work myself. However I guess I was interested in the challenge so I went ahead.
My research had been flawed - I didn't know that part P had been revised (doh!) so I took the requirement about documentation to heart. Being an ex-design engineer from regulated industry, my idea of good documentation means detail (warning to those who want to follow my example). So I decided to start and maintain a "record of electrical works" for my house. I will put this on my website when I get a chance. It is currently well over 100 pages!!!
Seeing that I had no certification for my installation, and the PIR label on my CU was blank, it was clear to me that I needed to do a PI. Having never done this before, this required a lot more research and preparation. Also I decided I needed a decent multifunction tester so I got my Robin off e-bay and then got it calibrated (another warning to those who want to do this - another not insignificant expense).
So I started to build the document. I started with some sections about the procedures I would follow for planning, design, testing etc. This included a statement about who will do it (me) and why I am competent. Here I included my academic and vocational qualifications in electrical/electronic engineering, and also my relevant electrical engineering work experience (all industrial). I also decided to mention that I am a Chartered Electrical Engineer and a corporate member of the IET (which I wouldn't be except for the fact that it is the only way for me to maintain my CEng status which I worked hard to get).
Next I added the results of my PI as a proper written report (including things like estimating the length of cable runs and comparing them with typical values of copper resistance per metre to the continuity measurements taken) and included the IET standard PIR. I also created a set of wiring diagrams as best I could.
By the time I had done this, I desperately needed to do some non-notifiable mods in the garage and loft. So I decided that I would follow a proper engineering design process for this. So I included written descriptions of things like requirements, planning (selection of materials, safe working etc), design (generally how I will meet the regs), installation (exactly what I did), test results & certification and validation.
The last section before I send this document to my LABC was a section on the 'major' works for my extenstion and other alterations. Here I primarily listed my requirements and what I wanted to do, and clearly defined which parts were notifiable. When I sent it to the LABC I directed them to read this section as the notification, and the use the rest of the document as demonstration of my competence.
The only reply I got was "so you're a competent person who is not registered with a self-certification scheme"? Which I confirmed.
That was a few months ago. Since then I have discussed a few issues with my LABC about fire protection, holes in joists etc, but we never discussed inspection. So since I am soon to change my CU, I thought I'd ask them about what they wanted to inspect. The answer was, as I have stated, that they will not inspect anything as they are happy that I have demonstrated my competence.
So that's it. Maybe there is some luck involved, but mainly it has been a lot of hard work on my part. Maybe my document is overkill, however as any other design engineer should agree, the act of writing things down and reviewing it does wonders for the design process, especially when it is done in phases.
Anyone who wants to follow should probably take most note of the fact that:
a) I can offer genuine qualifications (HNC & degree) to demonstrate my knowledge
b) I can offer electrical engineering work experience (including designing safety systems in the petrochem industry) to demonstrate related experience
c) I performed a full PI with test results and wiring diagrams, plus detailed information about work I had done to my installation as further evidence of my competence
d) I was able to convey all this to the LABC through the creation of my document, which was relatively easy for me because I have done countless similar documents during my experience as a design engineer
I hope this helps.
Was the PIR mosly for your own satisfaction and education. Please correct me somebody if I am wrong but I didn,t think you could PIR a property in which you had a financial interest. Can't remember where I got this info........it maybe a load of bull........anyone out there advise?
It's just a certificate to say "I've inspected the installation and this is what I found" - why should you not be able to say that about your own property?
Dippy - none of your qualifications prove that you know anything about the Wiring Regulations, or have any competence in testing. Did your LABC not send anyone to assess anything that you had done?
Once your extension is finished and signed off, have they said what the process will be for notifiable work that you do in the future?
Dippy - none of your qualifications prove that you know anything about the Wiring Regulations, or have any competence in testing. Did your LABC not send anyone to assess anything that you had done?
Once your extension is finished and signed off, have they said what the process will be for notifiable work that you do in the future?
BAS - you trying to have your cake and eat it?
You recently, in another thread, were at pains to point out that compliance to 7671 is not required by the building regs. If Dippy's LABC are happy that he is competent to design, install and test and installation such that it complies with the BR, what is the problem? After all, 7671 is only "one way" of demonstrating compliance with part P of the BR.
Absolutely correct. However one does not need to have a qualification to have the knowledge, and I have simply read up on the wiring regulations. As I noted there is a lot of written description in my document, and what I wrote about the PI would have demonstrated my knowledge to the LABC.
Sorry but I have to refute your comment about competence in testing. Both my HNC and degree courses were very practical and I did far more testing than is required for simple domestic electrics.
You seem to have focussed on my qualifications, but they are only part of the demonstration of my competence. My industry experience is important too. Again the design, testing and commissioning work I have done in the petrochemical industry is significantly harder work than domestic electrics. The regulations are tougher too - after all my safety systems were designed to protect the lives of hundreds of people, not just the risk of electric shock to a simple person. And, although I am hardly a supporter of the IET, they do at least put some effort into assessing the competence of their members who apply for chartered engineer status.
But finally, I assume that the LABC have done exactly what I expected. They have looked at my document and seen that I have put all of this into practice. They might have thought about sending an inspector, but they decided to trust what I had written. I should hope so too: I do take my chartered status seriously and that includes the code of ethics.
I have not asked them and don't intend to. Once I have done all this work there will be no reason for me to do any more notifiable work in the future (just as well as I will be sick of it!).
This is interesting reading
A new definition is provided in Part 2 of the 17th Edition of the IEE Wiring Regulations for a 'Competent Person'. This is different from a 'Competent Person' in terms of Part P of the Building Regulations, and also goes beyond that expected in the 16th Edition:
There are a number of new and important definitions contained in the 17th Edition of the IEE Wiring Regulations. One of them concerns 'Competent Persons' - as follows:
Part 1: Scope, Object & Fundamental Principles
134.1.1 - 'Good workmanship by Competent Persons' or persons under their supervision and proper materials.
134.2.1 - Inspection & testing to be carried out by 'Competent Person'
Part 2: Definitions:
There are approximately 260 definitions in the 17th Edition - there were approximately 170 in the 16th Edition. New definitions include that of a 'Competent Person'. A 'Competent Person is: ' A person who possesses sufficient technical knowledge and experience for the nature of the electrical work undertaken and is able at all times to prevent danger, and where appropriate, injury to themselves and others.'
This is different from a 'Competent person', for example, as defined in Part P of the Building Regulations. For example, anybody carrying out electrical installation work in dwellings, as well as associated gardens or outbuildings in England and Wales, is required to make 'reasonable provision in the design, installation, inspection and testing' of this work to protect persons from fire or injury. Part P of the Building Regulations requires that the work is carried out by a 'Competent Person', and it enforces the Wiring Regulations as statutory in the domestic environment.
All such electrical work in dwellings must be notified to the local authority or carried out by a 'Competent person', the definition of which - for the purposes of Part P - means the companies or organisations that are responsible for carrying out the work. A company ('firm') can be a single person, but they are not necessarily employees. Such firms have to register with a Competent Person scheme to avoid having to notify the scope of the work to the local authority. The firm will then have to appoint a 'qualified supervisor' to sign off work that comes under the scope of Part P.
Therefore, a 'Competent Person' in this case is a person who registered with one of the scheme providers that has been approved by the former Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (OPDM) - now The Department for Communities and Local Government (www.number10.gov.uk/output/Page1490.asp) - to administer such schemes. But, as far as the 17th Edition is concerned, a 'Competent Person is (as already stated): ' A person who possesses sufficient technical knowledge and experience for the nature of the electrical work undertaken and is able at all times to prevent danger, and where appropriate, injury to themselves and others.'
A new definition is provided in Part 2 of the 17th Edition of the IEE Wiring Regulations for a 'Competent Person'. This is different from a 'Competent Person' in terms of Part P of the Building Regulations, and also goes beyond that expected in the 16th Edition:
There are a number of new and important definitions contained in the 17th Edition of the IEE Wiring Regulations. One of them concerns 'Competent Persons' - as follows:
Part 1: Scope, Object & Fundamental Principles
134.1.1 - 'Good workmanship by Competent Persons' or persons under their supervision and proper materials.
134.2.1 - Inspection & testing to be carried out by 'Competent Person'
Part 2: Definitions:
There are approximately 260 definitions in the 17th Edition - there were approximately 170 in the 16th Edition. New definitions include that of a 'Competent Person'. A 'Competent Person is: ' A person who possesses sufficient technical knowledge and experience for the nature of the electrical work undertaken and is able at all times to prevent danger, and where appropriate, injury to themselves and others.'
This is different from a 'Competent person', for example, as defined in Part P of the Building Regulations. For example, anybody carrying out electrical installation work in dwellings, as well as associated gardens or outbuildings in England and Wales, is required to make 'reasonable provision in the design, installation, inspection and testing' of this work to protect persons from fire or injury. Part P of the Building Regulations requires that the work is carried out by a 'Competent Person', and it enforces the Wiring Regulations as statutory in the domestic environment.
All such electrical work in dwellings must be notified to the local authority or carried out by a 'Competent person', the definition of which - for the purposes of Part P - means the companies or organisations that are responsible for carrying out the work. A company ('firm') can be a single person, but they are not necessarily employees. Such firms have to register with a Competent Person scheme to avoid having to notify the scope of the work to the local authority. The firm will then have to appoint a 'qualified supervisor' to sign off work that comes under the scope of Part P.
Therefore, a 'Competent Person' in this case is a person who registered with one of the scheme providers that has been approved by the former Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (OPDM) - now The Department for Communities and Local Government (www.number10.gov.uk/output/Page1490.asp) - to administer such schemes. But, as far as the 17th Edition is concerned, a 'Competent Person is (as already stated): ' A person who possesses sufficient technical knowledge and experience for the nature of the electrical work undertaken and is able at all times to prevent danger, and where appropriate, injury to themselves and others.'
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