New installation of open fire

[GeoffTitch]

We have a house, built in 1974. The plans were for a fireplace, but it was cancelled in the last stages of house construction and bricked over. The chimney/flue were fitted and builder's space constructed, then it was bricked over.

Nearly 40 years on, we have decided to open it up for a real wood fire, purely for atmosphere.

We have found the builders space and it all appears to be in good nick. So far we have just opened one brick and inspected it. The space itself measures approx 700mm wide by 940mm high, 370mm deep with a clean, lined flue.

We are fairly competent DIYers, but this is new territory. I've spoken to the Local Authority (building) and they said they consider it opening up an existing fire, so don't really care. Also have a sweep on standby to come and check once we open the space up completely.

We have been researching fireplaces (mantels, surrounds, hearths) purely from a decorate point of view, and also getting up to speed on fitting of a fireback.

Now then, firebacks seem to come in 16" (406mm) or 18" (457mm) standard widths, whereas we have a 700mm wide space (or will do once we open it, which I'm not doing until we have a lintel in place). I'm fine with everything I can find about backfilling with vermiculite/cement mix, cardboard to create an expansion space, etc. and building up from the back to a slope to meet the entrance to the flue.

What about the sides, inside the builders space? The flue entrance is off to the left. If I position the fireback in the centre, do I then just backfill both sides as well, and slope them down into the fire? Trying to figure out how that works to the right, as I will have a slope going away from the centre, but to a sharp angle top right...?

 

[maltaron]

For a woodburning open fire you would be better to line the opening square with fire bricks, fit a flue lintel over the top and get a fire basket. Normal tapered firebacks will only take a limited number of small logs and you need a relatively large fire for burning wood only.Using some small coal around the logs is beneficial.

 

[pinenot]

By the sounds of things you need a real experts view and advice. If you know of an old local brikie, experienced with chimney/fireplace work in your area, or you someone who knows who to ask, find that expert and ask his advise, it will be invaluable...pinenot

 

[GeoffTitch]

For a woodburning open fire you would be better to line the opening square with fire bricks, fit a flue lintel over the top and get a fire basket. Normal tapered firebacks will only take a limited number of small logs and you need a relatively large fire for burning wood only.Using some small coal around the logs is beneficial.

That's fine, it's more for decoration/the concept of a (small) open fire than a large roaring thing. The house is heated and insulated anyway, and we know that most of the real generated hear goes upwards

By the sounds of things you need a real experts view and advice. If you know of an old local brikie, experienced with chimney/fireplace work in your area, or you someone who knows who to ask, find that expert and ask his advise, it will be invaluable...

Yep, and if we could find one, I'd ask. We have a local ex-brickie who has been and had a look so gave us a bit of useful advice. I will probably get him to drop by again at several intervals. Bit of a bonus, in that he drops in teh occasional trout or pheasant when he does so as well

We did ask two working builders to quote. One wanted £6k (£7.5k if the smoke test revealed the chimney needed relining) and the other "declined to quote"...

 

[GeoffTitch]

...hoping this works...

As far as we have got:

http://sphotos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/602029_10200499397943166_1366896616_n.jpg

View inside the chimney, looking up:

http://sphotos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/306191_10200499673110045_1110322224_n.jpg

(Ah, cameras on phone, brilliant for taking a look around inside without actually ripping the wall out first!)

 

[pinenot]

Try installing a spit roast...hmm!...roast pheasant...hmm!

 

[GeoffTitch]

Try installing a spit roast...hmm!...roast pheasant...hmm!

...tempting...

We are actually looking at a cast iron setup.

The question is more what to do left and right, as the space is obviously wider that the cast iron fireback. Is it just a case of leaving it bricked up at the front and backfilling the rest of it?

 

[pinenot]

Depends how much back-fill, and if their are no firebricks built you may have to build up them first. Once again your local old brikie should be able to advise best course...pinenot

 

[GeoffTitch]

We may have resolved it - I have a highly recommended chap in the Reading/Basingstoke area coming in to give a free inspection and assessment of what can be fitted, and how. And as a bonus he prefers to do his inspections on a Saturday.

 

[dann09]

You need a view from a HETAS installer/sweep, the Regs on any solid fuel burning have changed in the last few years.

As you know, you must smoke test ( and make inquiries ref cost of a camera down the flue.)

The c/stack and terminal must be inspected.

 

[GeoffTitch]

The chap coming tomorrow is HETAS and Corgi registered.

Incidently, we have just been told we need to have a 100cm2 vent installed in the (cavity) wall...

 

[GeoffTitch]

We seem to have some slightly conflicting information about the flue.

The HETAS engineer said it all looks really good, nice clean opening, good quality class 1 chimney, simple to install a nice cast fireplace in it, slightly odd as the flue opening is about half a pipe off centre and squared inside the top of the opening (he said it looks like a fitting for a gas stove, which makes no sense as there has never been any mains gas in the village)

...but...

...he can't fit an open fire as the installed flue (which he says looks really lovely, nicely fitted, clean and well joined) is only 6" (actually 155mm) but must now be 7" (175mm) minimum.

There is blackening in the builder's space at the bottom, indicating that the builders lit a fire in there, probably while they were building it, but just possibly to test the draw in the building stage... or perhaps just to get rid of some rubbish over a cuppa before the windows/walls/floors were finally installed so it may tell us nothing

It's clearly not worth rebuilding the chimney just to install a larger diameter flue.

However, according to the Stovax website, legislation was for a 6" minimum, but that was reduced to 5" for solid fuel stoves due to their efficiency: http://www.stovax.com/idoc.ashx?docid=5bfd9b75-5864-4342-8feb-c9adfe85785d&version=-1

"In the past it was the rule, when burning wood in England and Wales, that the flue must be at least 6” in diameter to ensure it would not become blocked by soot between services. The new version of the building regulations takes into account the advances in wood stove combustion technology and allows the flue diameter to be reduced to 5” IF the appliance spigot is 5” AND if the appliance has been exempted by DEFRA under the clean air act."[/i]

That's located on the technical information for this cast iron horseshoe, so not associated with a stove: http://www.stovax.com/fireplaces/cl...on_insert_fireplaces/technical_horseshoe.aspx

 

[pinenot]

Back in your original post you said that "I've spoken to the Local Authority (building) and they said they consider it opening up an existing fire" Therefore today's regs don't apply.
By real wood fire, do you mean an open fire but made out of cast iron, or a closed wood burning stove?

 

[GeoffTitch]

Back in your original post you said that "I've spoken to the Local Authority (building) and they said they consider it opening up an existing fire" Therefore today's regs don't apply.

I did. I called them and spoke to building control. They were distinctly not interested. I did explain that it had never been actually used as a fire, i.e. no fireback had ever been fitted so it was putting a chimney (purpose built at the time of construction of the house), that had never been used in any real sense, into use. He was quite clear that they considered it putting an existing fireplace back into use, therefore they didn't need to know anything and had no concerns.

The HETAS chappie was very clear that he (emphasis added) was not allowed to install a fireplace somewhere that had a flue smaller than 175mm. That left us slightly concerned about the installation.

By real wood fire, do you mean an open fire but made out of cast iron, or a closed wood burning stove?

Cast insert, like this: http://www.stovax.com/fireplaces/cl..._iron_insert_fireplaces/horseshoe_insert.aspx

Not a closed stove. An open fire, for wood. Never to be used as a primary heat source, merely a feature and a nice atmospheric effect. Not a massive roaring beast, just a small indoor fire (in a room of approx 36m2) - we 'like' the idea of the fire/fireplace

 

[pinenot]

Unless you want to fit a flue system then, once again no building regs apply apart from those in force when the house was built. If you check the technical data link on the horseshoe insert link you provided, you'll get much of the info that you require. However you should know that wood burning produces a lot more soot and more regular sweeping would be advised.
Another consideration you will have to take into account would be venting the fire. If there has been major upgrades from initial build, double glazing, draft-proofing and the like, then a ducted vent may be required!...pinenot