Not enough hot water,only 1/2 a bath and heating is average
- Thread starter hobbles
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OK, so you buy a bit more gas... personal choice.
A professional shouldn't saddle his customer with higher than necessary bills.
No, I'm a customer who doesn't appreciate being shafted.
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Hi Spraggo. No. Lockshield valves are there to even out all radiators / towel rails. When comissioning, TRV heads should be removed before balancing the system.
TRV is like a on / off depend of the temp of the room it sitting in. If the TRV closed completed, all the other radiator will get a little more flow. TRV has nothing to do with balancing, lockshield valve is.
Dan.
Hi ajrobb
Your qoute on this forum dated Sept 28 2010 7.42pm reads as follows:
Balancing the system is a throwback to the days before TRVs. If the radiator is 'balanced', you limit the flow when the TRV is turned up for demand heating. OK, there may be a point in limiting flow on radiators at the beginning of a long circuit, but that only needs a rough-and-ready approach - just open the valve enough so the bottom of the radiator gets hot.
I hate to get in to one of these internet arguments but...
if all the rads are correctly size for the room then balancing the rads becomes less important. as the room nears the temp the trv is set for it will reduce the flow and allow the other rads to catch up.
but... if you have a customer that thinks they now better and only will run there heating for 1hour twice a day then it is pointless even fitting trv as they rely on a flow through them to work which will not happen.
btw a good TRV is not an on/off device it should reduce the flow through the rad before shutting down(if at all)
if all the rads are correctly size for the room then balancing the rads becomes less important. as the room nears the temp the trv is set for it will reduce the flow and allow the other rads to catch up.
but... if you have a customer that thinks they now better and only will run there heating for 1hour twice a day then it is pointless even fitting trv as they rely on a flow through them to work which will not happen.
btw a good TRV is not an on/off device it should reduce the flow through the rad before shutting down(if at all)
Your choice.
But still, it still need to be balance, with or without TRV, so that when heating switch on, the flow will run to all radiators evenly if balanced correctly.
Not balancing correctly mean the far / last radiator has to wait till the rest of radiators's TRV reduced flow. That is not an efficient system, a waste of gas.
I know TRV does reduce flow or off depend of temp of the room. It nothing to do with balance. I have come across a few system with TRV with some radiators still cold, after I've balanced, all are hot from cold start.
I've been taught by my Master.
Dan
But still, it still need to be balance, with or without TRV, so that when heating switch on, the flow will run to all radiators evenly if balanced correctly.
Not balancing correctly mean the far / last radiator has to wait till the rest of radiators's TRV reduced flow. That is not an efficient system, a waste of gas.
I know TRV does reduce flow or off depend of temp of the room. It nothing to do with balance. I have come across a few system with TRV with some radiators still cold, after I've balanced, all are hot from cold start.
I've been taught by my Master.
Dan
if some rads are red hot and others are stone cold then it is nothing to do with balancing and down to poor system design or sludge
you balance rads so they all have the same temp loss from flow and return not to fix rads that dont even get hot
you balance rads so they all have the same temp loss from flow and return not to fix rads that dont even get hot
Oh, the ignorance of youth.
Hi ajrobb
Your qoute on this forum dated Sept 28 2010 7.42pm reads as follows:
Balancing the system is a throwback to the days before TRVs. If the radiator is 'balanced', you limit the flow when the TRV is turned up for demand heating. OK, there may be a point in limiting flow on radiators at the beginning of a long circuit, but that only needs a rough-and-ready approach - just open the valve enough so the bottom of the radiator gets hot.
That was weeks ago. I was originally thinking of balancing for a system without TRVs. With radiators sizes slightly wrong, oversize radiators can be turned down to limit their output.I am older and wiser now (or I've swallowed a crock of ...). I have learned that condensing boilers can be more efficient if their return temperature is set up properly.
By and large, I stick by those statements. However, there is still the period of warming up, when the TRVs are mostly open. If the boiler temperature has to be set too high for heating just to get hot water to 60, there might be some condensing efficiency gains from cutting the flow rate and increasing the temperature difference between flow and return.
Once the TRVs are mostly closed and an ABV starts opening, all hell breaks loose; return temperature rises and condensing efficiency drops. Ideally, weather compensation (or intelligent industrial controls), would drop the feed temperature to keep the TRVs open and the ABV closed. I think this is probably beyond a Baxi Solo and the OP is stuck with a feed temperature between 65 and 70 to heat the water.
Hi Dan, Your master should have explained to you that you will get hot and cold radiators, this means that the TRVs are doing their job by closing each radiator as the room that it is situated in reaches the set temp.
cheers
spraggo
I have to disagree with you there!
Balancing has TWO functions, taking just enough flow to provide the heat output and leave the rest for the others.......
AND
to create the temperature differential which enables the boiler to operate most efficiently.
Tony
sorry agile...
the whole "must have 11/20 degree drop over the rad" is a red herring in most cases.
for one condensing boilers would love to have a massive flow to return temp drop. what stops some from doing that is the limitation of the main HX.
for example viessmann don't give a hoot if you have a greater the 20 degree drop over their boiler. then other like intergas have a return temp sensor and just add 20degrees to the return temp for the flow.
and anyway if you have to have a 20 degree drop for what ever boiler then your not going to be able to fit trv's as they will sure as **** bugger that up as they start to limit the flow through the rad.
the whole "must have 11/20 degree drop over the rad" is a red herring in most cases.
for one condensing boilers would love to have a massive flow to return temp drop. what stops some from doing that is the limitation of the main HX.
for example viessmann don't give a hoot if you have a greater the 20 degree drop over their boiler. then other like intergas have a return temp sensor and just add 20degrees to the return temp for the flow.
and anyway if you have to have a 20 degree drop for what ever boiler then your not going to be able to fit trv's as they will sure as **** bugger that up as they start to limit the flow through the rad.
Confused.com or what!
My scenario now is:
Heating is on, rads up to temp.
We have 9 rads and 3 towel rads with no TRV's. The dining room TRV is off due to guinea pigs in there.
1.Is this going to cause a flow problem/unbalance/unefficient running of system with TRV off??
2.The genaral opinion says open lockheads fully. Ok
3.TRV's fully open or 1/2 open (Spraggo).
4. Adjust down to suit each room and leave the lockheads fully open on all rads/towel rads
5.Boiler gauge @ 80% clockwise, room stat at 24. Correct??
Wow it is a science this heating lark, no wonder you all have different opinions. Really appreciate your posts and the knowledge you share here.
Cheers chaps, I look forward to your conclusive posts.....
My scenario now is:
Heating is on, rads up to temp.
We have 9 rads and 3 towel rads with no TRV's. The dining room TRV is off due to guinea pigs in there.
1.Is this going to cause a flow problem/unbalance/unefficient running of system with TRV off??
2.The genaral opinion says open lockheads fully. Ok
3.TRV's fully open or 1/2 open (Spraggo).
4. Adjust down to suit each room and leave the lockheads fully open on all rads/towel rads
5.Boiler gauge @ 80% clockwise, room stat at 24. Correct??
Wow it is a science this heating lark, no wonder you all have different opinions. Really appreciate your posts and the knowledge you share here.
Cheers chaps, I look forward to your conclusive posts.....
Some house will always need a properly balanced system.
Ours for example is 20m long and 4m wide. the only way to run the pipework is to run a 20m long main flow return in 22mm along the length of the house and then tap all rads off that. The boiler is in the middle and is tee'd in at the middle of the 22mm pipes (10m for either end).
When all lockshields are fully open, the first 4 rads (2 either side of the boiler Tee) get hot very quickly as they take most of the flow (since they are closest and so easiest to drive). The other rads then don't get hot at all until the TRVs shut of these first 4 rads. Since these firts 4 rads heat large spaces, this can take over an hour and the rest of the house remains baltic.
Once correctly balanced, the whole system (and house) heats up in about 20 mins.
If you have a cube shaped house and every rad is driven from a central manifold then balancing is less important but in some houses it is absolutely necceassary.
iep
Ours for example is 20m long and 4m wide. the only way to run the pipework is to run a 20m long main flow return in 22mm along the length of the house and then tap all rads off that. The boiler is in the middle and is tee'd in at the middle of the 22mm pipes (10m for either end).
When all lockshields are fully open, the first 4 rads (2 either side of the boiler Tee) get hot very quickly as they take most of the flow (since they are closest and so easiest to drive). The other rads then don't get hot at all until the TRVs shut of these first 4 rads. Since these firts 4 rads heat large spaces, this can take over an hour and the rest of the house remains baltic.
Once correctly balanced, the whole system (and house) heats up in about 20 mins.
If you have a cube shaped house and every rad is driven from a central manifold then balancing is less important but in some houses it is absolutely necceassary.
iep
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