Oven and induction hob connection

[ColJack]

I would seriously consider fitting a "decor" panel (the type that sits between two kitchin units) between the cooker and the next unit. This would provide two purposes. Firstly, ventilation for the cooker (though not usually nessecary), and second, a place to mount the switches that is very accessible!

you mean like this?

View media item 11807

 

[holmslaw]

..

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

its going to be a matter of opinion here,

No its not, I have'nt given an opinion and I'm not interested in yours. Because opinions have no place in a technical discussion.

thats not very nice. You have given an opinion, you say you can't put a switch in a cupboard. I am often interested in your opinion, and they do have a place in a discussion where there is clearly a difference in opinion.

but there is nowt wrong with a switch inside a cupboard.How many airing cupboard have you seen with FCU's inside?

Loads of times, for the immersion heater that also in the same cupboard.

So, do you think that is allowed?

Why do you need an emergency switch for a cooker?

Dunno, why do you mention it, try reading whats written rather than between the lines.

Im reading on the lines. I mention the emergency switch for a gas oven to bring a bit of logic to the 'you must have emergency isolation for an oven' due to the perils of cooking related dangers. The danger would exist from a pan fire regardless of whether it was on gas or electric.

I know another contributor here will state an example of not being able to use the controls provided on the cooker itself in the event of an emergency, but that is a rare as rocking horse plop (Hi Bernard )

Quite right chip pan fires are a figment of his imagination.

They do happen, just infrequently

Where is the emergency control switch for gas cookers?

Dunno, but I've always wondered why they put the control knobs at the front of the cooker rather than the back, weird.

I wonder if thats so you can operate the controls without putting your arm across a hot area.

no disrespect Holmsybaby, but i think section 537.3 "switching off for mechanical maintence" (AKA, cleaning) is usually the primary reason for the installation of such switches.

So now you're saying they are required.

Nope, im saying that when they are installed, thats the reason - for mechanical maintenance, not for an emergency.

In a commercial installation, i might adopt a different view point, probably based on a risk assessment of some form

Commercial or domestic the risks are the same, thats why the regs do not differentiate.

So you think the probability of an accident of some form is just as likely in a domestic environment as irt is in a commercial installation?

 

[martinxxxxxx]

Because opinions have no place in a technical discussion.

.

That has got to be one of the most misguided quotes I have ever seen on this forum. If thats true; there is no need for this forum and you have to ask - Why do all projects have technical meetings, if not to iron out ideas on the best way forward on a project. All engineering requires a "trade off" in terms of cost, practicality, essential functionality etc. This is all opinion driven.

It is my opinion that the switches should be visible and I would always locate them so that they are. Although as it is not totally explicit that they cannot be in an enclose or in a cupboard there is scope for another interpretation.

Our whole legal system is based on an adversarial system where to opinions are compared and the winning one becomes case law. The regulations ultimately are implemented through this legal system. If you can quote some case law showing that your interpretation has won through. Then you would be able to say that unless some one is prepared to take the matter to a higher court than the case law you are quoting there is no room for opinion on the matter.

Most of the big red book will not have been tested in law to this extent, so opinions matter.

And it is educational for us all to swap them in a friendly manner.

Happy New Year

Martin

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

oops, screwed the quotes up in that last post.

What do you think to the contradiction i pointed out earlier?

 

[holmslaw]

..

 

[holmslaw]

..

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

its going to be a matter of opinion here,

No its not, I have'nt given an opinion and I'm not interested in yours. Because opinions have no place in a technical discussion.

thats not very nice.

Please don't take it personally 'my opinion' comment applies to equally to me, you and everyone else.

oh, ok. It just seemed that the season of goodwill ended rather abrubtly in Zaire.

I have detailed the regs that support my position, you have not offered any evidence for your opposite postion, except for your personal opinions.

Ok, bare with me a mo, ill go back to your first post here and respond to that directly, for the purpose of constructive discussion, not a point scoring or condescending excersise. Ill leave the stinky-attitude to those here who don't know any other way.

you say you can't put a switch in a cupboard.

Thats correct, unfortunately you're deliberate misinterpretation of this phrase to mean that I am saying 'immersion heaters in cupboards should not have a controlling FCU in the cupboard'.

hang on a minute, you just recently told me to read what what was written, not between the lines. erm, pot - kettle?

And you're insistence that I am saying emergency switching is a requirement when I have said nothing of the kind, make further discussion pointless.

Thats a bit indirect and not really what i was saying at all, im taking a overview of the reason why you say that a switch cannot be placed in a cupboard, further constructive comment to be had here me thinks. back in a mo...

 

[martinxxxxxx]

I've attended thousands of meetings and on three occassions someone has been daft enough to confirm their opinion is just an opinion, and all three were firmly told 'then no ones f****** interested.'

.

By you, no doubt

3/1000s of meetings, are making stats up on the spot?

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

sorry, i mean't second post..

Thats what I thought, so is underneath a wall cupboard 'clearly visible' ??

Depends exactly how you do it, my rule would be, would a stranger know how to turn off the appliance?

When would a stranger ever need to do such a thing? If

If its not obvious its not acceptable,

a bit of conjecture here, this is your opinion.

heres what the applicable regs say.

537.2.2.6 Each device used for isolation shall be clearly identified by position or durable marking to indicate the installation or circuit it isolates.

position OR durable marking. So i could position it in an adjacent cupboard and mark it 'cooker'. Therefore a switch in a cupboard can comply with 537.2.2.6

Also section 537.3 "switching off for mechanical maintence" may or may not apply.

IMO, the most likely reason for a designer to include a n isolator. A consideration of convienience for the user of the installation. However, theres nothing in section 537.3.2 which precludes installing a switch in a cupboard

There are regs that deal with remote isolation, these call for instructive labelling and lockable isolators.

I take it you are referring to 537.3.1.2, thats valid for remote isolation, but we are talking about a cupboard adjacent to the cooker, which would be continuously under the control of the person carrying out the maintenance/cleaning. If there are more regs you are referring to , please advise.

Edit - forgot this one - 132.15 "Isolation and switching" - 132.15.1 Effective means, suitably placed for ready operation, shall be provided so that all voltage may be cut off from every installation, from every circuit thereof and from all equipment, as may be necessary to prevent or remove danger.

'suitably placed' doesn't preclude being in an adjacent cupboard.

In general terms, If the intended purpose of fitting a control switch or isolator was for emergency switching, i would recommend that the switch be fitted somewhere obvious.

However, due to 537.4.2.6, i don't think cooker isolators comply with this where the cooker itself has manual control switches. Therefore, in the majority of cases, cooker control switches should not be considered as 'devices for emergency switching' so they don't have to be placed somewhere obvious, merely somewhere convient for their intended purpose (switching off for mech. maintenance)

Also, if as you suggest, you are not talking about emergency switching specifically, just switching in general, then why is it you cannot fit a cooker switch in a cupboard, but you can fit an immersion FCU or a CU in a cupboard? Thats a bit inconsistent.

 

[ColJack]

can we take chip pan fires out of the loop here?
once started, turning off the heat source is not going to stop it, so an isolator switch is irrelavent in this circumstance..

if people these days are still stupid enough to cook with big pans of boiling oil then they should know the risks and have a damp tea towel handy just in case..

 

[bongos]

In general terms, If the intended purpose of fitting a control switch or isolator was for emergency switching, i would recommend that the switch be fitted somewhere obvious.

However, due to 537.4.2.6, i don't think cooker isolators comply with this where the cooker itself has manual control switches. Therefore, in the majority of cases, cooker control switches should not be considered as 'devices for emergency switching' so they don't have to be placed somewhere obvious, merely somewhere convient for their intended purpose (switching off for mech. maintenance)

Also, if as you suggest, you are not talking about emergency switching specifically, just switching in general, then why is it you cannot fit a cooker switch in a cupboard, but you can fit an immersion FCU or a CU in a cupboard? Thats a bit inconsistent.

I thought that if the switches were for isolation then there would be no problem putting them in an adjacent cupboard. Obviously an emergency switch would want to be nearby and visible but I can't see why an isolation switch can't go in the cupboard?