Part p Kitchen

[smelly007]

Hi one of three under cupboard lights failed by burning the series cable link plug and socket out. Rented property.

A direct replacement was not available, but a similar one was so i as an non part p person renewed the dissimilar light fixings as required and and fixed the cable under the cupboard and left the final connection to an electrician. I also fitted a junction box at a suitable point for the electrician on the pelmet light ring.

All he had to do was connect up one cable and interrupt the ring in the junction box. Easy job all the work had been done but not the final connecting to the mains.

The electrician called and connected the light and left.
I assumed it would have needed a part p minor works cert, but the sparky said the work was to far advanced to qualify for a certificate?

What have I done wrong ? and if he made the final connection to a double insulated standard strip light. Surely he is responsible.
He wants to charge me extra £90 for a cert?

I don't understand, I follow the regulations and don't do the work myself and still end up with out a minor works notice.

smelly

 

[JohnW2]

I don't understand, I follow the regulations and don't do the work myself ....

I don't know what regulations you think you are following, but you did 'do the work' - everything other than the 'final connection'.

I suppose, in theory, the electrician could give you a certificate just for the 'final connection', but that would leave most of the work still uncertified. He can't really provide a certificate which says that he did things which he didn't do (but maybe he is offering to do just that, dishonestly, for £90!).

If (as is presumably the case) you feel that you were competent to undertake the work you did, then you can issue a MWC yourself.

If the property is rented, why are you involving yourself in these repairs and, indeed, does your rental agreement allow you to?

Kind Regards, John

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Under part p, reasonable provisions are required as far as safety is concerned.
One way to do this is to inspect, test and document your findings.
Any thing else, I would consider unreasonable, you should have a cert.

Tenant or landlord?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

part p minor works cert

No such thing.

 

[ericmark]

Even with notifiable work it is written in the Part P document that only the completion certificate is issued by the LABC inspector he does not give you either a minor works or installation certificate.

The installation certificate has a version with three signatures. One for design, one for installation, and one for inspecting and testing. You would have to sign the first two.

As to inspection and testing that is more than simply connecting up. It is likely he would need to dismantle your work and re-install in order to fully inspect and test. So in real terms you have not helped but actually caused more work as instead of simply installing he would need to remove it all first.

So instead what he would do is an electrical installation condition report. So in real terms you are paying for an EICR not a minor works certificate.

Had you passed the installation certificate to the electrician on arrival and simply said will you sign for inspection and testing when you have finished then he would have the option of saying yes or no and if no you could have found another electrician. But after he was good enough to finish off the work you had started to then ask him to make out the certificate is clearly not on.

 

[smelly007]

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my query.

I am the landlord of the above property.

As a qualified Gas engineer (first in the country to qualify to set the benchmark for the current standards 15 years ago)
South West Gas apprentice qualified 1979, worked on the tools ever since.
Self employed since 1987.

Been installer, been foreman, been electronics engineer. Worked for major house builders and developers alike. Plus letting agencies.loads.

All counts for nothing if a pelmet light goes down which was wired via proprietary plug connectors.

I think the most relevant point I am guilty of is foreman assistance. I just can't help myself making other tradesmen jobs easier, First job of the day was to check with all the trades that they had no obstacles, enough plaster, holes where they wanted them, enough space etc.

Thing is, with all the legislation today I am petrified of working out of scope accidentally.

In my time I have seen some truly appalling work carried out by people and some professionals.

Wires to immersion heaters 30m long on 1.5mm
Central heating circuits on 0.5mm flex run under the floor
Electrician forgetting to earth the casing on a baxi back boiler
Holes left everywhere following routing of services.
Most recently new build purpose made block of flats in Bristol with exposed wiring from the power ring left below the kitchen cupboards with a chocolate termination waiting for the water.
Walls made good with blancmange or similar inappropriate materials.
Crossed mains supplies on boiler faults.
etc

Anyway thank you for the replies.
I'm off to the PV solar forum to install my own.

Some time back the local council building control rang me up to ask if I would work for them inspecting all gas jobs where the engineer could not be traced on behalf of the house owner who probably had the dodgy work done in the beginning. Incensed with all my training and effort when others just carry on regardless assisted by building control I declined.

Even today I find not currently licensed tradesmen working for letting agencies. Other landlords who have their old fella do the install then expect me to pop over and certify the job in between me doing another course and giving people more of my money. Of course then you have the guy who does 300 properties for one company who is unable to refuse a certification else he looses all his work. And of course the estimators who undercharges and finds him self out of pocket unless he cuts corners and at the finish runs like hell.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Wires to immersion heaters 30m long on 1.5mm

What's wrong with that?

Some time back the local council building control rang me up to ask if I would work for them inspecting all gas jobs where the engineer could not be traced on behalf of the house owner who probably had the dodgy work done in the beginning. Incensed with all my training and effort when others just carry on regardless assisted by building control I declined.

You were being asked to inspect (and presumably report), not rubber-stamp as OK. I would have thought that being given an opportunity to get paid for highlighting dangerous installations, and slapping ID or AR notices on them, would have appealed.

 

[JohnW2]

I think the most relevant point I am guilty of is foreman assistance. I just can't help myself making other tradesmen jobs easier,...

I don't know how it works with gas, but maybe you did not realise that, with electricity, there is not an option for a non-electrician to do most of the work and then get an electrician to 'make the final connection and certify all the work'.

Incidentally...

In my time I have seen some truly appalling work carried out by people and some professionals. ... Wires to immersion heaters 30m long on 1.5mm

Nothing wrong with that, per se (providing the cable was not totally enclosed in insulation). Even in terms of voltage drop, at 4.9% for a 3kW immersion, it would just be within the guidance limit.
Edit: too slow again!

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

Wires to immersion heaters 30m long on 1.5mm

What's wrong with that?

I also wondered and did the calculation just rough but it is right on the edge. The maximum is between 30.5 and 33 meters depending on installation method used. However that is today at 5% volt drop at 4% it would have been around 22.5 to 26.5 meters so yes before the volt drop was increased to 5% 30 meters of 1.5mm² would not have complied.

 

[JohnW2]

I also wondered and did the calculation just rough but it is right on the edge.

Quite. As I said, it's about a 4.9% voltage drop (for a 3kW immersion). However, the "5%" is just guidance. All the regs actually require is that the voltage drop should not be such as to impair the safe operation of the connected equipment - and, as I'm sure you would agree, even a 50% voltage drop would not do that in the case of an immersion heater!

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

Wires to immersion heaters 30m long on 1.5mm

As above. Plus only just is compliant.

Central heating circuits on 0.5mm flex run under the floor

Also probably fine if you mean the control wiring.

Electrician forgetting to earth the casing on a baxi back boiler

Do you perhaps mean the plumbers' favourite unnecessary cross-bonding?

Holes left everywhere following routing of services.

Depends what you mean.

Most recently new build purpose made block of flats in Bristol with exposed wiring from the power ring left below the kitchen cupboards with a chocolate termination waiting for the water.

Again, probably fine (if done properly).

Walls made good with blancmange or similar inappropriate materials.

Probably valid criticism but plumbers are good at this, too..

Crossed mains supplies on boiler faults.

What does that mean?

etc.