Part P notification from April 2013

[mbga9pgf]

Wiring into empty MCBs would count as new circuits !

Ask them for prove the MCB were empty before

That's my thinking. What's to stop a DIYer to have the cu installed with a full set of MCBs, wired to terminated short twin and earth of an appropriate csa, then subsequently "modify existing circuits" by adding to the wires using either crimps or appropriate maintainance free jb?

This seems to be, ahem, legit, as long as it doesn't route through special locations?

This is the thing about notification, it hasn't stopped anyone from doing anything in their own homes and so long as it's done safely, why should it? A lot more can go wrong from misuse of a pressure cooker.

It's just saved me a fortune in notification though when I come to sell the house. Effectively, they have given DIYers a window to claim they completed previously notifiable work. Even if its changed back at a later date, predates diy work will be squeaky (if compliant with the relevant standards of course)

 

[SaladFingers]

Wiring into empty MCBs would count as new circuits !

Ask them for prove the MCB were empty before

That's my thinking. What's to stop a DIYer to have the cu installed with a full set of MCBs, wired to terminated short twin and earth of an appropriate csa, then subsequently "modify existing circuits" by adding to the wires using either crimps or appropriate maintainance free jb?

This seems to be, ahem, legit, as long as it doesn't route through special locations?

This is the thing about notification, it hasn't stopped anyone from doing anything in their own homes and so long as it's done safely, why should it? A lot more can go wrong from misuse of a pressure cooker.

It's just saved me a fortune in notification though when I come to sell the house. Effectively, they have given DIYers a window to claim they completed previously notifiable work. Even if its changed back at a later date, predates diy work will be squeaky (if compliant with the relevant standards of course)

This is it, whether or not someone has notified something, if it meets the standard of BS7671, it's not dangerous at all, it's just been done without paying the LABC a fee to do something in your own home that has nothing to do with anyone else.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Replacement is the clue.
There is no mention of the oft-quoted 'like for like' in the regulations.
Incidentally, this is the case at present.

Is there anything to suggest 'like for like' isn't acceptable?

Of course not, but as usual, you have missed the point.

Like for like has been a term used for years.

Obviously but there is no mention of it in the regulations with regard to 'replacements'.

If for maintenance something is replaced, be it a like for a like or an upgrade, is the existance of such an item a new thing in its entirety?

Que

 

[SaladFingers]

Replacement is the clue.
There is no mention of the oft-quoted 'like for like' in the regulations.
Incidentally, this is the case at present.

Is there anything to suggest 'like for like' isn't acceptable?

Of course not, but as usual, you have missed the point.

No, not as usual and there's not a 'point', it's a question on an open forum. Don't get angry if it's a question you don't like.

Like for like has been a term used for years.

Obviously but there is no mention of it in the regulations with regard to 'replacements'.

If for maintenance something is replaced, be it a like for a like or an upgrade, is the existance of such an item a new thing in its entirety?

Que

 

[flameport]

The next question that then arises would be whether replacing the shower unit with a different make/model but similar specifications would be classed as an alteration

Replacing a shower or any other item is certainly not an 'addition' to anything.
Whether it is an alteration depends on whether you consider changing the make, model, rating etc. as an 'alteration'.

The actual definitions are:

Circuit - An assembly of electrical equipment supplied from the same origin and protected against overcurrent by the same protective device(s).

Electrical Equipment - Any item for such purposes as generation, conversion, transmission, distribution or utilisation of electrical energy, such as machines, transformers, apparatus, measuring instruments, protective devices, wiring systems, accessories, appliances and luminaries.

 

[SimonH2]

The question is really a matter of ...
Replacing with the same model is clearly OK, as that's not an alteration. But replacing the shower with a different model could well be classed as an alteration since it's changing something that by the definition posted is part of "a circuit" and which is within a special location. Tricky one that, I think by the strict definition anything but a like-for-like replacement could be technically classed as an alteration - but how strict would the authorities be in their interpretation ?

Since the regs no longer specifically state that "replacement" is allowed, that doesn't come into it - it's a matter of whether the replacement is an alteration if it's not like-for-like.

 

[AdamCH]

The actual definitions are:

Circuit - An assembly of electrical equipment supplied from the same origin and protected against overcurrent by the same protective device(s).

Electrical Equipment - Any item for such purposes as generation, conversion, transmission, distribution or utilisation of electrical energy, such as machines, transformers, apparatus, measuring instruments, protective devices, wiring systems, accessories, appliances and luminaries.

Are these definitions from the british standard or from the regs or the approved docs?

 

[flameport]

Those definitions are from BS7671.

 

[EFLImpudence]

We need a definition of 'altering a circuit'.

So, new circuits apart, as there is now no such thing as a replacement the notification, or not, depends solely on whether you are altering a circuit.

Does replacing a 60W lamp with a 100W lamp alter the circuit?
If not, would you consider replacing a 7kW shower with a 10kW one (@240V), where the cable is 10mm² and the mcb 40A, an alteration.


Do you think it was/is the intention to make ALL work within the zones notifiable?

 

[SimonH2]

We need a definition of 'altering a circuit'.

Sounds like it.

So, new circuits apart, as there is now no such thing as a replacement the notification, or not, depends solely on whether you are altering a circuit.

That's how I read it.

Does replacing a 60W lamp with a 100W lamp alter the circuit?

Taking a literal interpretation of the definition of a circuit given above, then yes !

If not, would you consider replacing a 7kW shower with a 10kW one (@240V), where the cable is 10mm² and the mcb 40A, an alteration.

I think there's a good argument both ways. You are definitely altering the circuit (according to the definition given that includes any appliance connected), but there is a good argument for saying that you are not altering the cable (or it's current carrying capacity) or the protection it has. But what if the cable were 6mm² and a 32A MCB (might need to drop down to 8 or 9kW for the example) ? Someone (not too technical) could well take the attitude that "it works" and it doesn't trip the MCB, so it must be OK - after all, if it's within the current that the MCB will pass (at least for long enough to have a shower), then it must be within the capacity of the cable (else the protection isn't matched to the cable).

Do you think it was/is the intention to make ALL work within the zones notifiable?

Who knows what the intension was !

 

[EFLImpudence]

Does replacing a 60W lamp with a 100W lamp alter the circuit?

Taking a literal interpretation of the definition of a circuit given above, then yes !

Therefore, assuming you are correct, unless the circuit (including equipment) is exactly the same in all respects, after the work as it was before, then it must have been altered and must be notifiable .

If this is the case then I shall have to get used to that irritating phrase
because it would appear that at last relevance has been given to 'like for like'.

 

[mbga9pgf]

Does replacing a 60W lamp with a 100W lamp alter the circuit?

Taking a literal interpretation of the definition of a circuit given above, then yes !

Therefore, assuming you are correct, unless the circuit (including equipment) is exactly the same in all respects, after the work as it was before, then it must have been altered and must be notifiable .

If this is the case then I shall have to get used to that irritating phrase
because it would appear that at last relevance has been given to 'like for like'.

It's not going to happen. They have de regulated, the sparks trade has had it's run with socialist regs, its now time to deregulate. If this wasn't the case, it would have bleep explicitly stated in the new policy.

 

[EFLImpudence]

It's not going to happen.

What isn't going to happen?
We are discussing what has happened and interpreting the new wording.

They have de regulated,

No they haven't; merely relaxed the notification rules.

the sparks trade has had it's run with socialist regs, its now time to deregulate.

As opposed to dictatorial gas where we're not even allowed to see the discussions.

If this wasn't the case, it would have bleep explicitly stated in the new policy.

You are obviously not familiar with the literary skills of the electrical legislature.

 

[ericmark]

If one looks at the word alter then to replace a blown 60W bulb for a working 60W bulb would be an alteration to the circuit. Anyone with an ounce of sense would realise you don't need to inform LABC before changing a bulb.

I see no reference to minor works only electrical installation condition report and insulation certificate so I would say until a government organisation states otherwise anything not requiring an installation certificate will not require notification.

However all rather academic as I live in Wales.

 

[EFLImpudence]

If one looks at the word alter then to replace a blown 60W bulb for a working 60W bulb would be an alteration to the circuit. Anyone with an ounce of sense would realise you don't need to inform LABC before changing a bulb.

Not sure if you left out a 'not' but -

either way, we are discussing work within the zones of a special location so no 60W bulbs.

see no reference to minor works only electrical installation condition report and insulation certificate so I would say until a government organisation states otherwise anything not requiring an installation certificate will not require notification.

Notification has nothing to do with certification.