Part p query

[Handyman]

What's to stop anyone doing electrical work and then getting a qualified electrician to test and certify the work to Part p regs?

For example, I might want to rewire my house in stages, room by room as I decorate each room. Once the whole house is done, then I pay someone to test and certify the whole circuit(s). Can I do this? After all, the only time when I actually need a certificate is when I sell the house (isn't it?).

 

[andy]

to do that, LABC needs to certify it. an electrician cant certify someone else's work

 

[pdcelec]

As an electrician/tester, I could not possibly pass off work that someone else has done since I cannot see most of it (behind plaster and the like). If I were to sign, then there was a catastrophe then it would be me in court for work that I had not done. If you were prepared to sign for the design and installation, I could test it, and sign for the testing only, marking down any defects found. I have done this in the past and found it almost impossible to get paid for the job since the client only wants to see a pass certificate. I could also provide a PIR but this is not what is required.

 

[il78]

A Periodic Inspection & Test could be carried out at the end, although would be or should be unsatisfactory due to an Installation Certificate not being available......if your post was meaning would a spark issue an installation certificate for you for a cash sum.....well it would have to be big wedge I personally wouldn't put my name to anyone elses work.....

 

[Handyman]

No, il78, I wasn't suggesting any underhanded tactics but trying to establish how kitchen fitters and the like get around this Part p business. There's a huge number of kitchen and bathroom fitters around here, and there is no way on earth that they are all Part P approved. So how are they getting around the problem, whilst I'm losing business, trying to be honest about these things?

 

[andy]

No, il78, I wasn't suggesting any underhanded tactics but trying to establish how kitchen fitters and the like get around this Part p business. There's a huge number of kitchen and bathroom fitters around here, and there is no way on earth that they are all Part P approved. So how are they getting around the problem, whilst I'm losing business, trying to be honest about these things?

i wouldnt be surprised if there response to 'are you part p registered' is 'eh?'

 

[pdcelec]

I believe the best way to get round the problem would be to either inform LABC or employ a part p spark.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

No, il78, I wasn't suggesting any underhanded tactics but trying to establish how kitchen fitters and the like get around this Part p business.

There are 3 ways to get round it.

1) Register with one of the self-certification schemes.

2) For notifiable work, notify LABC in advance, pay their fee, and organise the work so that they can inspect at 1st fix, 2nd fix etc.

3) Break the law.

I'm losing business, trying to be honest about these things?

So that leaves Options #1 & #2 for you, then....

 

[Qedelec]

Ban, this begs the question, how can we tell when the work was done, as long as the cables are in the old colours. A periodic inspection is all that will be required for house purchase purposes, so surely any spark issuing one can indemnify himself in the limitations box. How many properties have you been to where they have an Electrical Installation Certificate?

 

[mapj1]

Indeed, and for a long time to come, old reels of cable kept in good condition in lofts and understair-cupboards will be used up by people who do not know or do not care about the change in rules, and will be as dangerous as if it was done last year, i.e. probably not dangerous at all really.
The system relies on honesty, and the fact is that most stuff is safe, even if not wquite to the latest regs - it is exactly the same regime for getting the local authority to inspect when you replace your old WC or kitchen sink plumbing. It relies on people voluanteering the information that they are doing it. I suspect, in both plumbing and electrics, that an awful lot just "er happened overnight guv", and after a few years everyone has forgotten when. As no one normally prosecutes unless there is an obvious health and safety problem, I can't see it being a big issue, except for the paper chasers, who will want £100 quid off the house price for an electrical survey when it is sold. Actually that would be far more sense in general.
What will be needed if these regs are to stick, is a proper approach to regularisation by PIR, to acknowledge the reality of the vast majority of domestic property where the original papers heve been lost overboard in heavy weather many years ago, if they ever existed at all.

 

[Handyman]

Reply to Ban:
Registering for Certification requires the following:
1 - Attend training course
2 - Buy test equipment
3 - Pay annual fee to who ever the certification body is
4 - Arrange for test equipment to be calibrated annually

In round figures, this will cost:
1 - £600
2 - £300
3 - £300
4 - £50 (say)
Plus loss of earnings whilst attending course (OK, I could go in evenings, but that limits choice of providers)
Plus travel expenses to training provider (not a lot down here in SW)
Add this lot together, and you get a figure of about £2k to start with, plus on-going reg. fees and calibration fees.

A kitchen fitter has got to re-position an awful lot of 13A sockets to make this sort of commitment of time and money worthwhile.

Now, I have seriously considered making this investment, even though kitchen fitting represents only 10% of my business, but I simply cannot justify its commercial worth, when none of my competitors can offer certification, and few of my customers know or care about Part p.

I even thought about becoming certified and then offering a test and certification service to other fitters to recoup the cost, and maybe even make a profit, but I'm still not convinced about the investment and commitment I must make.

So how are other kitchen fitters getting away with it? What do they say to their customers? Why don't the "Part P Police" knobble all these guys so that those (like me) who are willing to make the commitment reap the benefit of their investment?

 

[mapj1]

There is no part P police, and as far as I know, the idea is it will be like gas work "police" i.e there is none, it rely on accidents and complaints to trading standards either by upset custmers or tiop off by other tradesmen etc to draw it to local authority attention. Even then they may well decide not to act.

Look here for gas work fines... all 147 of them since 1998.. admitedly some quite nastyhttp://www.hse-databases.co.uk/pros...T=C&EO=LIKE&SN=F&SF=CSUM&SV=gas+safety&SO=ADN

and I'd agree ones like this sort of thing deserves prosecution..
http://www.hse-databases.co.uk/prosecutions/case/case_details.asp?SF=CN&SV=F110000650
or http://www.hse-databases.co.uk/prosecutions/case/case_details.asp?SF=CN&SV=F080000314
and is typical of what is reported.
Note alsohttp://www.hse-databases.co.uk/prosecutions/case/case_details.asp?SF=CN&SV=F180000309 lesser fine for first offence and just being unregistered.

 

[AdamW]

Interesting point Handy.

When LABC do the inspection/testing, do they need access to the whole cable? Or just the ends of each cable?

As Handy points out, if you can do the whole house, room by room, and then get it all inspected at the end, then you could save time, money and hassle over having each room inspected every time you do some DIY.

Provided you do it right, of course!!! Correcting mistakes after replastering and decorating would not be good!

I rewired much of my kitchen... before 1st April of course... and it is now safer than the original wiring of 1984. For instance, plastic capping to protect a cooker circuit, that was routed on a dogleg route... All corrected now. So, had I been doing it after 1st April, which I didn't, then I would need to get it inspected even though it is an improvement over the original.

Oh, and when were cable detectors invented? Only the flid who installed the first kitchen managed to drill right through some capping (missing the cable, luckily!).

 

[Handyman]

.........tip off by other tradesmen etc to draw it to local authority attention......

I'll just send them photocopies of all the "skilled services" ads in our local free paper, and of our local Yellow Pages

 

[Handyman]

When LABC do the inspection/testing, do they need access to the whole cable? Or just the ends of each cable?

I asked our local authority this very question. They said that they had no qualified people to do testing and that it would have to sub-contracted. I would have to get it tested by someone else and pay LABC fee for their report. I would venture to suggest that no LABC anywhere has qualified and certified electricians armed with necessary test equipment to carry out testing.

And as AdamW says, LABC would have to inspect cabling before plastering, then see if you put any necessary protection over cables before plastering, and then look at all socket connections after plastering, and then test circuit. And even at that stage, presumably, they must and can only test the new circuit installed even if the rest of the wiring is pre 1950s rubber or wired with wet string?