Plumbers. Bless them.

[SaladFingers]

See, there you go again.

Dear lord.

This is a spade:

This is not for beating around.

Mind you - I am not in the least bit surprised to find you siding with donothingproperly. Are you actually a plumber as well?

That the best you can do in an attempt to regain credibility? Really?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

That the best you can do in an attempt to regain credibility?

In whose eyes?

Yours?

 

[SaladFingers]

That the best you can do in an attempt to regain credibility?

In whose eyes?

Yours?

I'll take that as a yes

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It'll be a cold day in hell when I consider your opinion of me as worth more than dogs**t on the sole of my shoe.

 

[SaladFingers]

It'll be a cold day in hell when I consider your opinion of me as worth more than dogs**t on the sole of my shoe.

That has no worth to it what so ever.


But hey, you carry on, BAS

 

[ban-all-sheds]

You're still a foul mouthed over grown child who sits in a wheel chair bleating over the internet from pages you've read as since your accident you have nothing better to do and no one will spare you the time in real life.

But hey, you carry on, BAS

Oh I shall, not that I need, or give a toss about, your permission.

 

[SaladFingers]

You're still a foul mouthed over grown child who sits in a wheel chair bleating over the internet from pages you've read as since your accident you have nothing better to do and no one will spare you the time in real life.

But hey, you carry on, BAS

Oh I shall, not that I need, or give a toss about, your permission.

Here you go

 

[doitall]

A good discussion I think is going on.

Probably change when BAS finds out.

Predictive text, you can see why this is about the only forum he hasn't been Banned from.

You can just picture him sat in the loo feeling sick as a pig, frantically scouring the internet and reading hundreds of books for little snippets of information he can copy and paste.

You wouldn't mind if he occasionally posted something that was worth while and contributed to the thread.

 

[East Kent Coastal]

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Untitled

• PrenticeBoyofDerry
• 5 Jan 2013
• 1

 

[matt1e]

Hi all, I should have realised that this would be getting discussed over here in electrics I'll just repeat what I had posted in the plumbing thread

mmm interesting thread and I have to admit that at the begining I would have argued the sparkies point
I would never use or condone the use of an earth wire for anything other than earth
But I've got to admit I can find nothing to dispute DIA's argument
(I wish I could, honest) though I can with the other side of it

Prior editions such as the 16th edn (i.e. this scan from the amd 2 of the 1992 regs - yellow cover) made it cast in stone back then that you must never use green/yellow for any other purpose:

Untitled

• Spark123
• 4 Jan 2013
• 2

that scan means exactly what erics quote from the 17th means and its not what you think see below

514.4.2 Protective conductor
The bi-colour combination green-and-yellow shall be used exclusively for identification of a protective conductor and this combination shall not be used for any other purpose.

How can anyone argue about that? It is rather final.

but it's not saying what you think it does
It's saying that a cable identified by the Bi colour combination green and yellow will be a protective conductor and nothing else
It does not say that you can not over sleeve said conductor and use it for a live conductor
then we have

Single-core cables that are coloured green-and-yellow throughout their length shall only be used as a protective conductor and shall not be over-marked at their terminations, except as permitted by Regulation 514.4.3.
In this combination one of the colours shall cover at least 30 % and at most 70 % of the surface being coloured, while the other colour shall cover the remainder of the surface.

A reference to single core cables not multicore

Persimmon Homes had a site just outside Liverpool where the green/yellow had been used as line wiring the tank thermostat must be about 15 years back now and the electrical firm was dismissed over it. As far as I am aware the fault was not corrected so yes one can come across cases where it has been done.

and did they oversleeve the core, or just leave it plain old green/yellow

Before that there was a court case where some electrician had placed a lose green wire onto a multi-spade earth terminal etc etc

irrelevant to this thread

This was all likely 40 years ago or more but like the case of the baby dyeing due to a plastic hot water tank failure it was repeated again and again..

again irrelevant to this thread
Hey I'll admit I've been wrong all these years if need be, I await doitalls replies to his emails with interest. and if he is proved to be correct then you just need to get over it
An apology to him should be on the cards too

one thing puzzles me though, and it's probably one for the sparkies to answer
in the same scenario ie a cylinder stat has been wired using 3core flex
and the earth conductor has been over sleeved and used as a live.
I thought these days earth cables had to be ran in and connected through anyway even to double insulated accessories

Matt

so where is everybody on this

If say you were wiring a new y.plan heating circuit today to current standards then
a) would the use of a three core flex correctly oversleeved and terminated to connect the cylinder stat be permissible?

b) would it have be permissible say 15 years ago?

any regulations quoted would be welcome as I don't have any to hand

The way I see it now is that while over sleeving is permissible losing the cpc in the cable may then contravene the regs

But is there not exclusions for double insulated Accessories?

Matt

 

[londonboy]

I believe there is a reg that says you must have a CPC at every point?

 

[EFLImpudence]

The way I see it now is that while over sleeving is permissible losing the cpc in the cable may then contravene the regs

That is the whole point.
It is not necessary to forbid that which is impossible to implement.

But is there not exclusions for double insulated Accessories?

No, quite the opposite 412.2.3.2 even has a note explaining that the reason is precisely to accommodate a replacement by a class 1 item should the need occur.

After all, if you think about it, it only applies to class 2 items so an exclusion would be pointless.

 

[ecowarrior]

It is unrealistic to expect a sparky or a plumber to rewire the heating controls in old houses.

Do u sparkies ever consider pinched neutrals on the heating ccts when upgrading to R17? If u wire it in the summer with the S/Y plan off - u wont know there's a problem till the heating comes on & both RCD's trip!

Spoken like a true plumber who knows SFA about testing, and cares even less.

I dont see any need for the foul mouth - my comment here was just a simple & helpful reminder of something you may not of thought about until after u have spent hours trying to find it. Testing on a pre 17 system will not find pinched neutrals on hall lights - why should it find pinched neutrals on other ccts?
Fortunately the CC being a closed forum has a positive affect on peoples behaviour. We thrash out opinions with the aim of helping educate each other rather than turn reasonably intilectual threads into an abuse session? Sparkies are not all idiots and neither are all of us. There are plonkers on both sides.
For old properties it doesnt really mater what some current reg says. There is no point being a puriitan as its pointless trying to shat the gate when the horse has bolted. The problem is there - a better and more helpful answer would be a way to minimise any risk and what should be considered a no no.
A bare cpc sleeved has to be a no no - but what would a properly badged up limited scope NIC approved plumber do when he goes to replace a zone valve and sees it? Somewhere in the depths of the regs it says you must never leave a job in a worst state that it started. That can be his only 'duty of care' obligation. He can not 'switch off the mains' he is certainly under no obligation to fix it - so all he can do is make it as safe as he can and make a note on the invoice?
With limited scope ( totally legal) he does not need 2391 ( or what ever the new version is) so cant even advise the customer 'how serious ' it is?
During an anual gas inspection from Gas Safe the inspector probably knows nothing of R17. He might note something obvious ( bare conductors) but little more. Its just another grey area that has to be handled as best you can.
Oh - and I am not a plumber. Most of the 'plumbing' comments I think are from the Combustion Chamber where Heating Engineers live. A decent HVAC engineer will show any traditional sparkie who just rewires houses a clean pair of heels in a busy plant room. Sparkies that can sort complex heating controls are a rare & specialist breed. Some see the gap in the HVAC arena & move over.

Lets just say you have been called to swap this zone valve head over ( certainly within your remit) - what would u suggest be done on seeing a: a sleeved cpc and b: a sleeved bare cpc?
Getting the heating back on depends on you. What do u propose?

 

[EFLImpudence]

Lets just say you have been called to swap this zone valve head over ( certainly within your remit) - what would u suggest be done on seeing a: a sleeved cpc and b: a sleeved bare cpc?
Getting the heating back on depends on you. What do u propose?

Could you swap it for the other conductor which was sleeved green&yellow and being used for the cpc?

Sorry, couldn't resist but surely the situation does not apply to zone valves.



I am, actually, having difficulty in imagining where the situation would apply. The only one I can think of is if replacement accessories are fitted to what was originally correctly installed wiring. For example a thermostat which now requires a neutral or, as has been mentioned, fitting a PIR sensor to an existing light fitting.

So are there any situations where a wrongly used cpc could not be remedied by removing the 'wrongly' installed accessory?


To answer your question truthfully -
If it were absolutely impossible to remedy I suppose it would have to be left.