Raise water tank in the loft

[pambar]

Hi guys,

I recently moved to the top-floor flat of a 2-storey building and there is very very poor water pressure (both kitchen and bathroom) due to the close proximity of the water tank in the loft. It is less than 2m far from my hot water storage cylinder which is located in the airing cupboard in the bathroom.

I repeatedly complained with both ThamesWater and the property management company to obtain a better pressure from the mains but it's all uselless. ThamesWater is only responsible for supplying water to the ground floor where the pressure at the stopcock is 1bar or slightly more.
Obviously, once the pipe reaches my flat there is inevitably a bit of a loss and I won't be able to install a megaflow system.

I was advised to replace the existing shower pump (which is broken) and raise the tank in the loft by 2m. There is a lot of room in the loft and I can raise the tank to a maximum of 2 metre.

How much would I gain in water pressure / bar by lifting the tank? Do you think 2m would give a better pressure and flow? Perhaps I should also replace the cold water pipe with a 28mm one?

Also, I'm not sure whether I need a negative or positive pump. As I said the tank is in the loft and the hot water cylinder in the airing cupboard in the bathroom.
Should I get a Stuart Turner Monsoon positive or negative?

Thankssss!

P

 

[PlumbGas]

Increasing the height of the tank is fairly easy, if you do make sure the entire base is supported, 28mm pipe will not be needed, 22 will be fine, if you increase the height by 2 mtrs you'll get an extra 0.2 bar pressure, you should only need a positive head pump but it all depends on the pipe run to the shower, i.e does it go up in to the loft space then back down to the bathroom, Stuart Turner, great pumps

 

[pambar]

Hi,

I need to check it again with a plumber but it looks like the pipe goes up to the loft - where the tank is located - and then back to the airing cupboard where the cylinder is placed. So this means positive head?

Would you recommend connecting both the basin and the toilet to the pump? or will it be too noisy and will end up damaging the pump?

Thanks

 

[PlumbGas]

Hi,

I need to check it again with a plumber but it looks like the pipe goes up to the loft - where the tank is located - and then back to the airing cupboard where the cylinder is placed. So this means positive head?

Would you recommend connecting both the basin and the toilet to the pump? or will it be too noisy and will end up damaging the pump?

Thanks

If the pipes go into loft you'll need Negative head pump, I wouldn't connect pump to toilet or basin myself, not needed if you raise tank also depends on your age but if you're over 40 you'll visit bathroom in the middle of the night and wake the household

 

[pambar]

Thanks for your advice. Indeed I was told that connecting all the devices to the pump could be damn noisy. I just can't figure out how noisy... perhaps like a hoover?

As I said lifting the tank by 2 metres could be an option to improve the situation for both basin and toilet. So you don't think that fitting a 28mm pipe is needed.

What about the tap? I have a mixer tap in the basin which could reduce the flow but I really don't want to move backwards to the old 2 taps (one hot one cold). Is there any good compromise in the market?

Thankssss

 

[PlumbGas]

28mm pipe will not help, mixer tap shouldn't be restricting flow unless it's one of the new continental types with the tiny flexi hose connections fitted, if the pump is fitted correctly the noise wouldn't be as loud as a hoover, not even close, more like a mild hum, some people box in the pump to reduce noise, this must NOT be done, you could connect pump to basin if you want just not to the toilet i would suggest

 

[pambar]

Oh fantastic. So do you think that connecting the pump to the basin will be allright? The noise should be tolerable but what about its wear&tear?

I mean the Stuart Turner moonson range is quite pricy, so I definitely want to make the most of it but without accelerating its wear&tear too much
.
Thanks!

 

[PlumbGas]

I mean the Stuart Turner moonson range is quite pricy, so I definitely want to make the most of it but without accelerating its wear&tear too much
.
Thanks!

It will reduce the life span of the pump as you will be using it alot more but not to any significant amount

 

[Richard C]

If the pipes go into loft you'll need Negative head pump

Not necessarily, it’s the gravity flow rate which dictates the need for a negative head pump. This is determined by the distance between the bottom of the CWS tank & the top of the loops or the shower head itself. Pumps vary, presumable due to the type of pressure switch fitted; the Monsoon needs 100mm minimum with a gravity flow rate of 0.6 litre/min, measured at the highest outlet (shower head). Salamander on the other hand state 600mm & a flow rate of 1 litre/min. But if in any doubt get the ST Universal; more expensive but will cope with both + & - head.

22mm feeds are fine for pumps up to 4 bar, you then need 28mm. Additionally, the tops of up & over loops must be vented or the pump will continually air lock.

You can connect the basin but I agree with PlumbGas about the noise factor. It doesn’t sound much in the day but can be annoying & will wake others during the night or if you’re an early riser. I installed a whole house pump in my own property some years ago but because of noise it makes, we only even switch it on when showering & the gravity is more than sufficient. With the increased static head your going to have by raising the tank, the flow should be more than sufficient as long as you fit low pressure (around 0.2 bar) taps.

Correct installation is the biggest factor affecting pump life; you’ll be amazed how often they are incorrectly installed or the pipe system design is compromised/skimped to save money. This usually means the pump failing in a relatively short time & the manufacturer won’t honour the warranty if your “plumber” hasn’t installed in accordance with the instructions so be careful.

 

[pambar]

Thanks Richard! If I get a Stuart Turner Moonson Universal 2.0 bar twin am I on the safe side?

http://www.stuart-turner.co.uk/products/monsoon/u20-bar-twin

I'm happy to spend a bit more money as long as it works well. I'll make sure about the installation with my plumber!

The top of my cylinder is only 1.3m away from the water cystern in the loft.

Apart from the pump, I also need to get a new hot water cylinder (economy seven range). The existing one has a 120 litre capacity. I was planning to upgrade it with a 166 litre Gledhill cylinder but I was told that such a large cylinder will reduce the gravity pressure even more.

Do you agree? larger cylinder lower pressure (without the pump)?

Shall I get a 144 litre cylinder instead? How many showers will I be able to take with such a device?

Is Gledhill the best brand on the market?

I'm very concerned about the basin. At present, the flow is extremely poor but I'm not entirely sure whether it's good or not to connect it to the pump. What are the best 0.2 bar basin taps? I really want to avoid the old-fashioned 2-single taps (one hot one cold), ideally I'd like to mix the water. Is there any good 0.2 bar mixer basin tap? Anything you can recommend?

Is it possible to fit a 28mm to the basin in order to supply more water? The bath tub enjoys a much better flow and the tap is a mixer tap.

Thanks!!

 

[Richard C]

If I get a Stuart Turner Moonson Universal 2.0 bar twin am I on the safe side?

As I said, you might not need it but it will suit positive or negative head

Apart from the pump, I also need to get a new hot water cylinder (economy seven range). The existing one has a 120 litre capacity. I was planning to upgrade it with a 166 litre Gledhill cylinder but I was told that such a large cylinder will reduce the gravity pressure even more. Do you agree? larger cylinder lower pressure (without the pump)? Shall I get a 144 litre cylinder instead?

A larger (volume) cylinder will not affect static pressure but if the new cylinder is taller, any difference in the height of old & new outlet flanges will reduce the static pressure (head) at the taps but as your raising the tank, it will more than account for the difference; get the 166 litre cylinder.

If you can persuade your plumber fit a side entry Essex flange, they are by far the best & preferred by most pump manufacturers but many are frightened of fitting them as it involves drilling a frigging great hole in the side of a brand new tank which takes balls!

How many showers will I be able to take with such a device?

That depends on several factors; the size of your hot & cold water tanks, pipe size, route & restrictions, the type of shower head you fit & how long you spend in the shower. Shower head flow rates vary but can be anything from around 10 litres/min. So 5mins in a 25 litre/minute shower will use 125 litres of cold water storage capacity approx 60% of which (75 litres) will be hot water from the cylinder so you’d be lucky to get even two hot showers with the size of tanks you have but reduce the shower head flow rate to 15 litres/min & you’ll use 40% less water in the same time. Aim for minimum water storage of 250 litres cold & 150 litres hot.

I'm very concerned about the basin. At present, the flow is extremely poor but I'm not entirely sure whether it's good or not to connect it to the pump.

Personally, I wouldn’t bother.

What are the best 0.2 bar basin taps? I really want to avoid the old-fashioned 2-single taps (one hot one cold), ideally I'd like to mix the water. Is there any good 0.2 bar mixer basin tap? Anything you can recommend?

There are so many different taps available, it’s an impossible question to answer; it depends on the style you want & your budget. Your basin cold supply should be mains pressure, if it isn’t you should change it. Older properties sometimes have a cold storage tank connection but Regs no longer allow that as you’re not supposed to drink it!

Is it possible to fit a 28mm to the basin in order to supply more water? The bath tub enjoys a much better flow and the tap is a mixer tap.

Anything is possible but it would have to be 28mm all the way through; rather impracticable I think. You should check other factors such as furred up pipes, restrictive gate/service valves, long & torturous pipe runs; these will all conspire to restrict flow.

 

[pambar]

Richard,

Great to have your views. It really helps me a lot to have a clear idea on how to proceed.

You're right: 166 litre cylinder is better than 144l.
Can you just explain a bit more what is a side entry Essex flange? Do you mean connecting the WST to the side rather than to the top? Not sure I got it right...

Also, my basin is connected to the tank and NOT to the mains. Interesting to learn that regulations have now changed. Do you think I'll be able to connect it to the mains?

I was also planning to connect a digital timer to the cylinder. Do you think Horstmann is a good brand? They have a wide range of economy 7 digital timers: http://www.horstmann.co.uk/water-heating.php

Last but not least, I need to fit a bath screen and was wondering whether there are restrictions with the bath rim. I mean how thick it should be to fit a bath screen and also whether it require a proper wall for the screws as mine is made of plasterboard (the airing cupboard is on the other side of the wall). I'm looking at Coram's frameless range as a top choice.

Thanks

 

[Richard C]

Can you just explain a bit more what is a side entry Essex flange?

It’s a side fitting flange;
View media item 34778
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p41238

Also, my basin is connected to the tank and NOT to the mains. Interesting to learn that regulations have now changed. Do you think I'll be able to connect it to the mains?

I would if you drink the water or even wash your teeth with it for that matter. You’d be both surprised & disgusted what turns up in some older cold water storage tanks.

I was also planning to connect a digital timer to the cylinder. Do you think Horstmann is a good brand? They have a wide range of economy 7 digital timers: http://www.horstmann.co.uk/water-heating.php[/QUOTE]
No personal experience with them but the name has been around a long time & well respected I believe

Last but not least, I need to fit a bath screen and was wondering whether there are restrictions with the bath rim. I mean how thick it should be to fit a bath screen and also whether it require a proper wall for the screws as mine is made of plasterboard (the airing cupboard is on the other side of the wall). I'm looking at Coram's frameless range as a top choice.

As long as the rim is wide enough to take the screen seal it should be OK. You will need to secure the screen to something solid; you can’t just fix it to PB. With stud walls this usually involves fitting an addition internal timber stud & noggins in the desired location to take the screen fixings. Your case is different but, as they won’t be on general view, you may be able to fix a timber frame/stud to the wall in the airing cupboard & fix through into that but the timber must be fixed to something solid at least top & bottom & not just screwed/stuck to the plasterboard.

With an over bath shower, be careful which type of shower head you choose. Overhead rain type heads are best as they direct the water downwards with the emphasis on water volume rather than pressure. Fit the wrong shower head your bathroom will look like a wet room after every shower & you’ll have water everywhere.

 

[longdogs]

[/quote]

If the pipes go into loft you'll need Negative head pump, I wouldn't connect pump to toilet or basin myself, not needed if you raise tank also depends on your age but if you're over 40 you'll visit bathroom in the middle of the night and wake the household [/quote]

Good point but if you buy a good make of pump ie: Monsoon or Stuart Turner, noise should be no louder than a combi boiler firing up.

 

[pambar]

Hey great to have your advise again. My bathroom is giving me so much stress at the moment. So good to have your tips and support.

A few more questions:

Is Gledhill the only provider of vented hot water storage tanks (economy 7 range) in the UK? Which is the best brand I should go for?

My plumber advised me to replace the existing water tank with a bigger one as I'll be using a much larger cylinder with 166l capacity. What sort of larger tank would I need then? And how big?

As I told you, he plans to lift the tank by 2 metre with a wooden base. Anty tips on how to build such a high platform? Is wood the right material to support the tank?

As for the shower head, is the one below good enough? It's a Grohe Rainshower and apparently it needs at least 1.0 bar pressure... my pump will be a Stuart turner Monsoon Universal 2 bar twin. Is it ok? Would the system work?

http://www.plumbworld.co.uk/grohe-r...gleBase&utm_medium=GB&utm_campaign=GoogleBase

Last but not least, I have some disgusting smell coming from the cupboard below the basin. It looks like my toilet is connected to the basin with a flexible pan connector like the one below:

http://www.plumbworld.co.uk/wirquin-flexible-pan-1816-20407

Do you think it's just a matter of replacing this connector or could it be a sign for something more serious?

Thanks

Pamela