RCD spurs that trip faster than the MCB RCD

Out of interest I put my clamp-on around my incoming tails, and as a total it was over 20 mA over the 14 circuits, the DC was 9 mA also over what one wants, to measure each one I would need to remove cover, and not really worried just interested, but we are allowed 9 mA per 30 mA RCD/RCBO and clearly my home now would exceed the limit if only using two RCD/RCBO on the board.
Yes. In fact, I rather suspected that You (or someone)was going to suggest that reason I haven't experienced non-genuine (i.e. 'nuisance') RCD trips is because I have so many RCDs. However, I don't think that's a very valid argument - since most of the loads, and certainly most of those likely to have appreciably L-E leakage, are on the ground floor and cellar, where there is one CU, with two RCDs and about 10 final circuits, covering all' living/'work' areas, kitchen, utility room and parts of the cellar -so not that much different from a dual-RCD CU in an 'average house'.
In this house only genuine faults water into socket when roof leaked have tripped the RCBO's, but when it did, I was able to simply leave that circuit turned off, with no worry about neutral to earth leakage causing other circuits to trip.
I thought that (at least until recently) most RCBOs have only single-pole switching, in which case 'turning off' an RCBO would not prevent potential problems in the case of N-E faults, would it?

Kind Regards, John
 
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A " Blue Moon" happens 7 times in every 19 years !
Hmmm. I'm not sure that idioms are intended to be taken that literally, particularly in cases like this, with the generally-accepted meaning of the idiom being more extreme that it actually is!

I don't know the actual numbers off the top of my head, but 7 times in 19 years sounds about right. Even if slight inconvenience resulting from house RCD trips due to fault in a garage happened that frequently, I wouldn't be expending much time, effort or money to minimise the risk of that - but, as I'm sure you understand, I was intending to imply a frequency of events appreciably less than that :)

Kind Regards, John
 
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Isolation transformer with grounded secondary and RCBO after that would do it
Yes, that should"do it" in the event of an L-E fault in the garage. However, I'm not so sure that it would be guaranteed to prevent an MCB (or RCBO) in the house operating as a result of overcurrent in the event of an L-N fault in the garage.

Kind Regards, John
 
Out of interest I put my clamp-on around my incoming tails, and as a total it was over 20 mA over the 14 circuits, the DC was 9 mA also over what one wants, to measure each one I would need to remove cover, and not really worried just interested, but we are allowed 9 mA per 30 mA RCD/RCBO and clearly my home now would exceed the limit if only using two RCD/RCBO on the board.
I should perhaps have added .... given that the great majority of loads likely to result in L-E leakage are likely to be ones plugged in to a sockets circuit, it could be said that "only allowed 9 mA per 30 mA RCD/RCBO" is a bit of a joke, given that a designer cannot have much of a clue as to what will, or might, 'be plugged in".

A designer can obviously "try" to comply with the 9 mA limit by increasing the number of residual current devices. That could be partially achieved by having one RCBO per circuit but, in the final analysis, in the case of sockets circuits would probably require something approaching "one RCBO per socket"!

For those of us who don't experience (m)any 'nuisance RCD trips' even with dual-RCD CUs, this whole discussion is obviously rather moot - the only real difference being that RCBOs would represent a significant financial outlay!

Kind Regards, John
 
I thought that (at least until recently) most RCBOs have only single-pole switching, in which case 'turning off' an RCBO would not prevent potential problems in the case of N-E faults, would it?

Kind Regards, John
I was aware of RCBO's as a multi module many years before the single module devices and they had the operating lever turned through 90° like a clock hand, something like this sort of thing:
I'm by no means stating this is 'the original' format, only my early recollections.
However I think I'm correct in saying the SP modules were a much later product.
 
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Years ago, I used to have some RCD sockets, in my house and for relatives to run lawn mowers or car tools. When I did RCD tests, I found they consistently tripped faster than RCDs in CUs. I did have some RCD spurs as well but don't remember the speed. They were the same brand.

I postulated that they had smaller contacts and perhaps the parts had less inertia.

I have not repeated the test recently since I am all RCBO now and have run out of aged relatives.
 
I was aware of RCBO's as a multi module many years before the single module devices and they had the operating lever turned through 90° like a clock hand, something like this sort of thing:
You may well be right. My earliest RCDs looked like that.
I'm by no means stating this is 'the original' format, only my early recollections. However I think I'm correct in saying the SP modules were a much later product.
Again, you may well be right. However, from when they became available to install in domestic CUs, 'single-width' RCBOs invariably only had single pole switching (and are what most of us have), but single-width DP ones now seem to be available.

Kind Regards, John
 
Years ago, I used to have some RCD sockets, in my house and for relatives to run lawn mowers or car tools. When I did RCD tests, I found they consistently tripped faster than RCDs in CUs. I postulated that they had smaller contacts and perhaps the parts had less inertia.
A very credible theory. However, can you remember what their IΔn was? - I've seen a good few 10 mA (and 'active') ones in my time and, although that guarantees nothing, it's another factor that might make it more likely that they would 'beat' a 30 mA RCD, particularly at fairly small residual currents.

Kind Regards, John
 
I thought that (at least until recently) most RCBOs have only single-pole switching, in which case 'turning off' an RCBO would not prevent potential problems in the case of N-E faults, would it?
It would not stop the leakage but it would stop tripping as a result as the neutral to earth leakage is not going through any RCD device.

A designer can obviously "try" to comply with the 9 mA limit by increasing the number of residual current devices. That could be partially achieved by having one RCBO per circuit but, in the final analysis, in the case of sockets circuits would probably require something approaching "one RCBO per socket"!
Not quite, 3.5 mA is the limit for most things, so at least 3 sockets per circuit, been a while since I have done PAT testing, but seem to remember the leakage allowed was a lot lower, in back of memory seem to remember returning some weighing scales as leakage too high. Seem to remember down to type of filter use.

The isolation transformer is a good point, I have argued many times the reduced low voltage transformer introduces as many dangers as it removes. In the main with no RCD protection and overload protection well over the 16 amp rating of the cable, with a 10 amp fuse on the input at 230 volt a line to earth fault at 55 volt would allow 42 amps to flow. This could easy cause a fire. Not seen a brick yet with protection on the output.

But the 10 mA MK socket we had a work increased the number of trips of the 100 mA and 300 mA trips, as people would press the test button, and it would trip all three every time.

However remember
I traced the fault to an old freezer in the garage
which would likely slowly increase leakage, so it would have a FCU as it says
It soon became obvious that the garage spurs off the ground floor ring.
so to come off the ring would need a fuse, so to swap to a RCD FCU would be an easy job.

But what you need is for back ground leakage to be below 5 mA, as a 30 mA should trip between 15 - 30 mA so if there is over 5 mA leaking then it could still trip the house one first.

The other is knowing it has tripped, my freezer has a light on when powered up, but I tend not to notice lack of a warning light, my emergency touch lights with a power cut, I notice that straight away, so I investigate and turn power back on, luck, and it is luck not design, my touch is on same side of the house to kitchen, so if the kitchen loses power, torch at top of stairs lights.

As you split the home into smaller and smaller circuits, the chance of not realising when the power has tripped increases. I did at one point consider a dedicated circuit for freezers, but that would mean less likely to notice when it trips.

I was surprised how quickly a freezer defrosts. I was in the kitchen when our freezer went bang, it had clearly just stopped, and I had a spare in the garage, so turned on the spare and waited for it to cool down before starting the transfer of food, maybe ¾ hour, when I came to move food, found food at top of freezer had already started to defrost. I would assume it went bang as the motor tried to restart after the defrost cycle, and the heat had risen to top only from the compartment with the cooling bits in, and since no fan running it only affected food at top?

But I was under the impression we had hours to transfer the food. I know I have brought honey ice cream home from Tywyn in a cool box so 70 miles a two hour trip and no signs of melting, so one would not think defrost would be that fast. However experience shows it can be.
 
The other is knowing it has tripped, my freezer has a light on when powered up, but I tend not to notice lack of a warning light, my emergency touch lights with a power cut, I notice that straight away, so I investigate and turn power back on, luck, and it is luck not design, my touch is on same side of the house to kitchen, so if the kitchen loses power, torch at top of stairs lights.

A few years ago, I bought and installed a cheap, digital thermometer, with a settable temperature alarm, and a remote wired sensor. The idea was one of the alarm being triggered, if the freezer door were left ajar, but it would also sound if the supply, or compressor etc. failed.
 
Yes, I've been lucky.

I inherited a house with a Hager RCD incomer CU. It had been added to so that there are now multiple circuits fed by one breaker, but over the nearly 24 years we have been here, I have been able to trace the reason for every tripping occurrence. Faulty dryer, water in junction box, those kinds of issues. There have been very few, from memory, I think you can count them on one hand.
 
Until late last year I could not measure earth leakage, my meter went down to 0.01 amps, so any reading would be a fail, and in real terms no help working out if on the edge, or loads of lee way.

Now I can measure 0.001 amps, I can see back ground leakage, and know how close to the wind I am sailing.

The insulation tester will show one DC leakage, but we use AC, so we have capacitive and inductive linking, so still a useful tool as can be used power off, but it does not show how close we are sailing.

With no meter the only option is to split into as many circuits as one can, without a re-wire, using all RCBO's, with the meter one can see what the leakage is, and do a risk of tripping assessment. They are not that expensive both my clamp-on and insulation tester were around £35, but £70 is still a lot of money for some thing which does not make it any better, but just lets you see how bad it is.

My meters VC60B.jpgTesting voltage.jpg are not celebrated, and not what a professional would likely use, to get them made by AVO, Fluke, Robin etc would cost a lot more, but good enough for what I want, and I find the non contact amps and volts very handy.

But for the man in the street I think they are too expensive.
 

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