I am about to have an extension built and would need to either replace or, if possible, relocate the existing boiler which so happens to be an Ideal Classic.Being as its been very reliable I am rather reluctant to have it replaced but i was wondering whether, given that it is a non condensing type, whether legally i would be obliged to do so. I also want to convert my system to an unvented so that i can run a power shower in a new to be built wet room . Given that that would entail a new costly cylinder relocating the Ideal would help me spread the cost until such time it became uneconomic to run.If its not do-able I would opt for a conventional vented system and just add a pump for the shower. I wopuld be grateful for any advice.thank you
Relocating an existing boiler
- Thread starter donmaico
- Start date
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Although its not in the spirit of the efficiency regulations, debate on here taks the view that you CAN relocate an existing boiler.
BUT it would be nearly the same cost to relocate as to install a new boiler so not goon economy. You can install an unvented cylinder to run off the existing or a new boiler.
Possibly installing a new large combi would be a more economic solution.
If I was a BCO and found you relocating an old boiler within a new extension then I would be inclined to be telling you that you should be fitting a condensing boiler and saving about 30% on the gas costs.
Tony
BUT it would be nearly the same cost to relocate as to install a new boiler so not goon economy. You can install an unvented cylinder to run off the existing or a new boiler.
Possibly installing a new large combi would be a more economic solution.
If I was a BCO and found you relocating an old boiler within a new extension then I would be inclined to be telling you that you should be fitting a condensing boiler and saving about 30% on the gas costs.
Tony
Whether it be a new boiler or the existing one the new site would be the same. Having said that a 30% saving on gas use would make a new one more attractive.The question then revolves around which kind of system would be best bearing cost effectiveness in mind. A combi would appear to be desirable particularly as I live in a bungalow with my wife so no great demands on water.
Unfortunately reliability has been an issue in our previous house with an Alpha combi we had .Over a 6 year period it broke down 6 times, we had to replace the diverter 3 times and a major electronic part once plus two other issues involving washers .
We live in a very hard water area and there were clear signs of limescale deposits within the boiler.We subsequently found out there was quite a bit of sludge and acid in the the whole system which we were advised suggested it was never flushed correctly before boiler installation which was probably responsible for the problems we had with the Alpha.
We had the system flushed and appropriate inhibitors added but that was a year ago and since then we have moved so we dont know how it is performing now.
Some friends of ours had a Worcester Bosch combi boiler installed and they found, like we had on occasions, that the hot water invariably stayed cold too often,ie their boiler was j not proving reliable in heating the water. British gas couldnt find a reason for it and suggested it might be because they were using mixer taps.They also spoke of other they knew who had similar problems.To my mind it sounds like a poor boiler or ineffective type of heating system and ,to be frank, I would need to be convinced that they work well.
A system that has been recommended to me is an unvented one, the existing coldwater pressure is good enough for it but i wonder whether it merits the extra cost over a vented system.At the moment the hot water seems to take an age to reach the taps from the cylinder which is just above in an airing cupboard
You seem to have thought things through very well.
If the length of time that it takes for the hot water to reach the taps is your main concern how about keeping things vented and installing a good old fashioned secondary circuit on the cylinder for instant hot water at the taps.
Servotech,
If the length of time that it takes for the hot water to reach the taps is your main concern how about keeping things vented and installing a good old fashioned secondary circuit on the cylinder for instant hot water at the taps.
Servotech,
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Whichever system you have a Viessmann boiler with a five year warrantee woukld give good protection against breakdown costs for five years.
With only two people a combi is not such a bad idea but please insulate all the hot water distribution pipes.
Tony
With only two people a combi is not such a bad idea but please insulate all the hot water distribution pipes.
Tony
As has been posted on here quite a few times, this 5 year warranty could be argued to be not worth the paper it is written on!
I was recommended boilers by Viessmann ,Valiant, Intergas, Atag , Remeha and Atlam . The choice is mindboggling and everyone seems to have their favourites.Reliabilty is obviously and issue with me but so is ease of obtaining spares and engineers who are familiar with them.I know some dislike fitting Worcester Bosch whilst others onlyt fir them and nothing else.What matters the most, I guess , is how well they are installed onto a clean system.
well I have given the matter a lot of thought yes ,but from your suggestion I still have things to learn.How would this secondary circuit work exactly? are you referring to what i have already? Its a vented system with two circuits heating and HW ,or i am getting confused here? i am guessing the HW is on a gravity fed system given its quite slow but I do have progammer which keeps heating and HW separate and i can time them separately.I have room thermostat, rad thermostat and a cylinder one.
this site gives the various circuit options
http://www.home-heating-systems-and-solutions.com/central-heating-design.html |i am guessing I have type C circuit and should be aiming for type S.Is that what you were referring to?
No, a secondary circuit for the hot water only operates on the domestic side.
At the moment I take it that you are having to pull lots of cold water through your taps before the hot water from the cylinder arrives at the taps.
This is because a lot of water is trapped in (what we call dead legs) the pipework (since the tap was previously used).
To form a secondary circuit the pipework just needs the H/W distribution pipe to return back into the cylinder (around the half way mark) so that the hot water is constantly circulating - thus eliminating dead legs.
You then take the stabs off the secondary circuit to the taps (keeping them as short as possible).
It's a very popular system in large houses and hotels.
Servotech,
At the moment I take it that you are having to pull lots of cold water through your taps before the hot water from the cylinder arrives at the taps.
This is because a lot of water is trapped in (what we call dead legs) the pipework (since the tap was previously used).
To form a secondary circuit the pipework just needs the H/W distribution pipe to return back into the cylinder (around the half way mark) so that the hot water is constantly circulating - thus eliminating dead legs.
You then take the stabs off the secondary circuit to the taps (keeping them as short as possible).
It's a very popular system in large houses and hotels.
Servotech,
http://www.glowinstallations.co.uk/hotWater.php
The 3rd diagram down should explain it better (although it is via a unvented cylinder).
It will work just as well with a vented system and with a bit of careful planning a good plumber could get it all to work via gravity (without that pump).
The 3rd diagram down should explain it better (although it is via a unvented cylinder).
It will work just as well with a vented system and with a bit of careful planning a good plumber could get it all to work via gravity (without that pump).
what i find odd is that I only live in a small 3 bed chalet bungalow (hardly a hotel or large hose where these dead legs are likely to be found) . The cylinder is situated in an airing cupboard which is in the bathroom which is directly above the kitchen , so its all pretty close.
Also the suggestion on that link is that secondary circuits are best suited to unvented systems not vented ones because in the latter air can get in and so lead to corrosion.
Maybe If I stuck with a vented system I should just have a pump fitted for the HW only. Or were you referirng to an unvented system anyway?
Your ideal classic is a fairly reliable boiler i would not replace it with a combi as the ammount spent on repairs will probably out weigh any possible savings in gas, an unvented cylinder should give you a good shower & also have a back up immersion heater should your boiler go down, i dont think secondary circulation is needed for a normal sized house just re plumb & make sure all pipework goes directly from the cylinder to the outlets rather than all round the houses if you know what i mean.
that was an option I was thinking about.What i save on a new boiler i can spend on a new cylinder.Didnt really fancy a combi if i am honest.
I have two bathrooms, one downstairs which i intend converting to a wetroom , one upstairs( where the cylinder is) we use all the time but it has an electric shower so only the sink and bath taps are affected.As we only ever have showers, its the kitchen taps which cause most of the annoyance re slow delivery of hot water
As an installer, I have enjoyed 5yr warranties from all our chosen boiler manufacturers for the best part of 5 years now and we have had no problems.
It is a 'win win' situation. I sleep soundly in knowledge that my customers are well protected, and they have the comfort of knowing that any boiler related repairs are sorted free of charge, usually next day.
The only time the manufacturers will argue is when they believe the installer has not put the unit in properly, or on a properly prepared (powerflushed) system. Or the customer has willfully not observed the annual servicing requirement - we write to our customers every year to remind them.
I have found Viessmann to be amongst the best in support. It is true they use subcontractors in certain areas but as Agile points out elsewhere, boiler manufacturers have to have 300% of the repair staff they need in the summer to cope with demand in winter months.
We complain to manufacturers about them hawking our customers for boiler servicing work, but those that have a large fully employed staff have to find something for them to gainfully do in the warmer months.
Can't have your cake and eat it, is the moral.
[/quote]
what i find odd is that I only live in a small 3 bed chalet bungalow (hardly a hotel or large hose where these dead legs are likely to be found) .
"Servotech,
There can be long runs even in a small property"
The cylinder is situated in an airing cupboard which is in the bathroom which is directly above the kitchen , so its all pretty close.
Also the suggestion on that link is that secondary circuits are best suited to unvented systems not vented ones because in the latter air can get in and so lead to corrosion.
"Servotech,
Ignore what they say because they are trying to sell one of their systems LOL
The link I posted was just for reference to help me explain a secondary circuit"
Maybe If I stuck with a vented system I should just have a pump fitted for the HW only. Or were you referirng to an unvented system anyway?[/quote]
"Servotech
I wouldn't fit a pump on the h/w I can't see anything to gain by it.
I was still keeping things vented/saving you some cash and offering a simple solution to the long draw off time for the hot water at the kitchen".
Installing a simple secondary circuit does sound like an ideal solution to me.
"Servotech,
There can be long runs even in a small property"
The cylinder is situated in an airing cupboard which is in the bathroom which is directly above the kitchen , so its all pretty close.
Also the suggestion on that link is that secondary circuits are best suited to unvented systems not vented ones because in the latter air can get in and so lead to corrosion.
"Servotech,
Ignore what they say because they are trying to sell one of their systems LOL
The link I posted was just for reference to help me explain a secondary circuit"Maybe If I stuck with a vented system I should just have a pump fitted for the HW only. Or were you referirng to an unvented system anyway?[/quote]
"Servotech
I wouldn't fit a pump on the h/w I can't see anything to gain by it.
I was still keeping things vented/saving you some cash and offering a simple solution to the long draw off time for the hot water at the kitchen".
Installing a simple secondary circuit does sound like an ideal solution to me.
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