removing lights and switches- confused by wiring

[Charl]

Hi,
Sorry if this is long and confusing but im a very confused atm.
Im trying to remove three lights, each controlled by individual switches, and put in a central light operated by one of the current switches.
I have a central light in the kitchen (which im not touching) then an understairs cupboard and downstairs toilet, with a slight passage between kitchen and two areas with another light.
Im knocking down the walls to make it into a kitchen diner and want to remove the cupboard, toilet and passage light, then relocate one centrally running from the cupboard switch. The other two switches are on walls I intend to remove.
I've remove all the lights and switches to look at the wiring. Every switch has two wires going into the top and one out of the bottom. Every light has one live and two neutral.
I've removed the floorboards from rooms above and it seems there is a live wire coming from the kitchen light to the toilet light. One of the neutrals is going to the switch, the other to the passage light (which seems to be that ones live wire). The switches and the cupboard all seem to be linked via these neutral cables??
There is also another live wire i've identified connecting to the cupboard light, coming from the living room direction.
It seems like a bizzare set-up to me. Its a 1940's ex-council house.
I was going to use and reposition all the connections from the cupboard light for my new light, as im using that switchs, the connect in the other live wire from the toilet light. Then hopefully all the other lights and switches in that group will be disconnected and i only need to remove the wires.
Is this right? Does any of that make sense?!

 

[Taylortwocities]

Neutrals do not normally go to switches.
What make you think they are neutrals? Is it because they have a black wire?

In most applications you have two wires going to the switch
One is the live feed to teh switch (red)

The other will be the conductor that becomes live when the switch is on (black)

Hope this makes things clearer for you.
Have a look at the WIKI. Most lighting arrangements are there.

 

[jockspark]

neutrals should not go to switches as taylor posted but the times i nave seen this bad practice. where they in a block in the switch ?

 

[plugwash]

to the original poster just because something is black does not mean it is a neutral. Electricity does not care about the color of insulation. Black wires used for live connections should be marked with sleeving but often are not.

can you draw a diagram of exactly what connects to what and what the connections are at each position?

P.S. taking neutrals via the switch is becoming increasingly common and I don't belive it violates any regs. Some older sparkies consider it bad practice but IMO it is better practice than trying to cram three cables into the tiny terminal enclosures of fancy light fittings or having inaccessible junction boxes.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

AFAICT it's becoming increasingly common, and will eventually be regarded as the norm.

And I swear that a year ago or more I saw a light switch with a neutral parking terminal provided, but I've never heard anything about that idea since, so either it was a flop or I should have been taking more water with it....

 

[jockspark]

tell me a college that teaches neutrals in switches if its not right its wrong

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It's time you joined the 21st century....

 

[jockspark]

do you use this system

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I've not needed to, but I would if I did, without a second thought...

 

[jockspark]

3 gang switch =5 neutrals + 5 earths not ideal
lets get back to charls problem

 

[Steve]

jockspark, I have taken neutrals to a switch in my house. I was wiring the conservatory lights. I had a single T+E comeing through the wall from the lighting circuit. I took it down to the switch, then back up to the light fitting. Simple and easy.

 

[jockspark]

yes steve a one of you can use a dp switch
try following a so called spark in a 4 bed rewire
who has tried to 3 plate in all the switches
i have done it my self to pick up i light
used a dp switch but when used in 2 way ect
it becomes very crowded but none of this is helpful
to charl

 

[333rocky333]

And I swear that a year ago or more I saw a light switch with a neutral parking terminal provided,

I realise you most likely mean plateswitches
A mk masterseal switch has a fitted neutral connecter though, it is also for connection to the neon indicator if you want to use it for "on" indication
Indicators on switches are another reason for neutrals to be allowed at single pole switches and becoming more popular,along with dimmers requiring neutrals.

Not sure but does not the no N at the switch tale, stem from the no lighting earth era, to try to prevent L-N short circuits when the plastic switch was dropped off for things like decorating.

charl
It is a bit unclear
Try and do a drawing or something.
your first problem is there is no mention of earth wires.
If none then you need to rethink your plan of action
Are these all single core cables
or
twin sheathed red and black together possibly with earth

I am sure someone hear can help

 

[dingbat]

... Its a 1940's ex-council house...

And your description sounds very much like a 1940s wiring arrangement.

Rocky mentioned that you hadn't described the existence of any circuit protective conductors ('earths').

Before you do anything I would advise you to get quotes for a rewire.

 

[daytona]

do you use this system

i do it,not all the time but i do do it.with people still having those god awful downlights fitted,it can be a bit messy doing a 3 plate inside a small jb.an in and an out looks so much better when its fitted,its really not a problem.you dont need to use a dp either,whenever else do you break the neutral on a lighting circuit.its not bad practise,its good practice depending on the type of fittings being used

the reason they dont tell you this at college,i suspect,is so you are forced to learn the three plate/loop in methods that you will be working on in the real world