Removing Supporting Wall and Chimmey Advice Please

[DIYdaddie]

I am planning the removal of a supporting wall and chimmey.

The space is 2.5m High and 3m Wide

I have attached a link with pics

http://benjamin-coughlin.fotopic.net/c1464123.html

Approx how much should I be paying for the removal of chimmey and wall, install of RSJ and skip all included?

The property is in Sussex.

I have already folked out £700 for a structural engineer to come up with the measurements and he will also submit everything to the council (thought £700 was high I was expecting far more detail in the drawings) that excludes the council fees of £254. He proven to be less than helpfull.

Any advice on costs would be really helpful. I have a limited budget for the whole house and therefore don't want this area running away.

Also what kind on questions should i be asking the builders that quote inorder to make sure they know the score?

Thanks for your help,
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[^woody^]

Also what kind on questions should i be asking the builders

"Have any of your chimneys fell down before?"

Seriously, for quotes the guys need to come an look at it. Just ask them to include all the works in the quote , and advise you if there are likely to be 'unforeseen' work when the walls/floor is opened up, and how much any 'extra' work is likely to cost if needed - ask for their daywork rate as a basis for determining extra work cost.

Basically, you don't want to be paying for work not included in the quote unless it was reasonably unforeseeable.

If they have done this work before, then a competent builder will know what is involved, and what work may or may not be required

You've been ripped of by the engineer, BTW. Thats way too much to have paid

 

[Shytalkz]

You've been ripped of by the engineer, BTW. Thats way too much to have paid

As one of "them", that does at first glance seem to be somewhat high in that from your photos it looks to be a straightforward bit of design - for a visit, measure-up and design/detail, I would expect to charge somewhere in the region of £300-350 plus vat, say about 4hrs work.

The BRegs fee seems high too: would have thought that would be more like £120 plus VAT.

Is the brief and scope of works somewhat more than just related to the chimney removal, perchance?

 

[DIYdaddie]

Thanks for your help,

I would like to post the information I have been given, clearly removing any company names etc...etc...

How can I go about doing this. I have it in PDF format.

Thanks

B

 

[Shytalkz]

I can't comment specifically about the legitimacy of what may or may not have been charged, I can only speak in general terms, as I have already done, otherwise I stand to fall foul - quite rightly - of the IStructE code of professional conduct, notwithstanding the no names, no packdrill approach of your intended uploaded documents.

If you agreed a brief and price and the SE's conformed to that brief and invoiced you accordingly, then that's that. If you agreed an hourly rate and he's justified the hours spent and given you what you need, then that's that too. If you just phoned one up, didn't give him a detailed brief, didn't ask either for a fixed fee or fee estimate beforehand, then you might have been tucked up, but then that's what comes of not appointing properly in the first place (it works the other way too, on occasions...).

Whatever the circumstances, if you're unhappy with the bill, go back to him and discuss it. Or pay what you feel is reasonable, he'll have to make a commercial decision as to whether to sue you for the balance.

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[Shytalkz]

I would also point out that, as a species, SE's often don't charge anywhere near enough for the level of risk that they assume. Mention £90/hr or so and some people go crazy at that; yet these same people happily pay £150+/hr to solicitors and £90/hr to their local garage to have the car serviced. A good engineer can save you ££thousands on whole-life costs for a project.

Admittedly, an overly-conservative one can cost you loads extra in build costs too, but they're not that prevalent: the required level of education, years of formal training and the fact that there's a seven hour exam to pass at the end of all that before becoming one generally sorts the wheat from the chaff. And those ones become civil engineers

 

[^woody^]

I would like to post the information I have been given, clearly removing any company names etc...etc...

How can I go about doing this. I have it in PDF format.

I'm not sure on PDF links to a forum, but you could save it as an image file and upload it to one of the many hosting sites - eg imageshack.com

 

[DIYdaddie]

Thanks for your help, please view the documents I have been supplied via the below link.

http://www.mediafire.com/?yxsdnx24nc2


Many thanks,

B[/url]

 

[Shytalkz]

Well he did do a bit more than one beam to support a stack. Even so, based on the info you've posted, that's not a bad fee (from his pov!) for a total of say 4-5hrs work, tops, including travelling/visit/measure-up/calcs and a not very detailed drawing. If you're unhappy about the levels of fee charged, I can only suggest that you take it up with him directly. If it's as per your instructions to him and the agreed terms between you, then there's not a lot that you can do about it, beyond using someone else next time you need an SE (and getting a quote/estimate beforehand).

 

[Shytalkz]

Assuming that he's a chartered/incorporated structural engineer (check here: http://www.istructe.org/yearbook/index.asp), then the code of conduct by which they are all bound is detailed here: http://www.istructe.org/about/files/charter/Code_of_Conduct_and_Guidance_Notes.pdf. Note 2 (Terms of reference) paras 2.2 and 2.3 might be of interest/relevance to you.

 

[DIYdaddie]

Many thanks for your comments.

I did think it was on the high side even if you take into account the communication required with the local council.

I have a good mind to submit that myself and ask/tell him to revise his costs to a more normal hourly rate.

One of my biggest concerns is whether he has provided calcultions for the
supports which the RSJ's rest on? Are they Pad stones or pilers?

He said the council will tell us that when they come in inspect once the plaster has been removed. They will also confirm if we need to build additional support for the RSJ's

Having spoken to the council they claim that's not correct.

Any ideas?

Thanks

 

[Shytalkz]

Not sure just how much pre-job communication would be required with the LA over this, the job is straightforward. And I still think you've been binged on the LA fees.

He's designed 40 (???!) thick bearing plates under the beam end 100 wide and 850 long to the party wall, 100x750 to the outside wall; I think he's intended the beam sitting directly on the brickwork for the other beam at the back. Whatever his intentions, it's not adequately communicated to you on the drawing. Make that not at all. I presume you mean piers? If so, can't see any mention of those, but he should be telling you the pier depth required certainly to the right hand end of beam A. Beam under front of chimney is not shown on the drawing, although it is referred to in the drawing text.

LA are correct, it's up to the SE to be telling them via calcs and drawing what is required and, as he's been to site, he should have a fair idea what the condition of the brickwork is, or is likely to be. Of more importance is the need to check the footings at the bearing positions, due to the change in loading pattern and the new concentration of load at the bearing positions - no mention of that on the drawing. If there are any site decisions to be made, then it involves the SE. That said, looking at the drawing, other than the footings, I can't see what. As I have said, it is, or should be, a very straightforward job.

Beam software is designing to an obsolete BS. Not that that is a problem, per se, but at those rates, you would think he would at least invest in up to date software

You sure that this was an SE and not a building surveyor??!

 

[Shytalkz]

PS one layer of 12.5 plasterboard and skim will give 1/2hr fire resistance

 

[^woody^]

It looks like he has used the Superbeam program. As such, I don't know of any engineers who would use this - normally its a load of hand written figures on par with a doctors writing.

And I agree that the SE tells the BCO what will be done, not the other way around.

Were is the detail for the cranked end of beam B? Has he done one?

Is that building notice fee correct? Seems a bit high too

Personally I don't think he is an engineer. I sometimes use Superbeam as it can be quicker than doing this old school way, but don't submit all the load analysis like yours has. It may look like a lot of work to justify the fee, but its superfluous.

It's probably not fair to nit-pick, but I do feel he has overcharged for the work, and more so if you have paid engineers rates and these were not done by an engineer

 

[Shytalkz]

It is Superbeam, v4.5 (don't know what the current one is, I use TEDDS when I can't be arsed to do it by hand - in typical doctor scrawl, naturally!). Unless DIYD has been very selective with his upload, the guy has issued the stuff to pad the calcs out to six pages .

To be honest, if this is an SE - and the more I look at it, I have my doubts - then it's ones like him who give the rest of us a bad name. The calcs are cráp and the drawing is too. I really can't see how he could possibly stretch the total involvement to more than 5 hours and that's being generous, which makes it £450 plus VAT at a healthy hourly rate - for a chartered SE, that is.

And if it is not a chartered SE, then the charges are (even more) outrageous.