Replacement boiler advice, BG or not BG?

[dirkgently]

Stumbled upon you knowledgable types while trying to research boiler options (flattery out of the way first).

In our 3 bed detached we have 8 rads, 1 bathroom with shower at the moment with a further shower room on the cards if we ever get the money together to convert our garage (spare/playroom with radiator and aforementioned shower room/toilet also with rad I guess).

Our aging (not sure how old) Alpha 280P gas combi has begun developing faults at far too frequent intervals. A leak before christmas cost me £240, no heat 3 weeks ago has cost me a further £150 and has meant that the central heating pressure gauge has packed up as a result. Also developed an altogether more serious leak after the recent work.

So am resigned to getting a replacement. After looking round here, I am getting good vibes from the Vaillant Ecotec 937. Vaillant is also based locally, and I like the idea of using local firms.

Having said that, I have had a brief chat with a British Gas salesman who wanted to sell me a BG branded Worcester Bosch 537 (?). His ballpark figure after discount came to £3600 installed.

Is this a reasonable amount (by BG standards) for this boiler, or will I be able to get my Vaillant installed independently for similar or even less?

Am I even aiming for the right type of boiler? Is the WB worth installing? He tried to tell me that WB 'tweak' this model specially for BG to make it better than equivalent trade models. Wasn't sure about this, thought I could smell salesman BS, but am willing to be educated.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated, as it's all a bit new to me.

Thanks in advance.

 

[kevindgas]

I am sure that you can get a better quote from a reputable local company
I'm sure even I could beat BG travelling from Soton and stay in hotel whilst doing the job!!!

 

[BingoBongo]

please phone him back and ask him to clarify what tweaking a boiler actually involves

some bg installs are contracted out anyway.

just make sure it is cleansed and a magnaclean is fitted as the pressure guage problem may be down to sh1t in system

as for the vaillant its down to preference and budget but you can always beat bg prices.

 

[Paul Barker]

You will think I am mad but I would overhaul your Alpha clean your system and if you did a net present value analysis I would save you a small fortune. the reconditioned Alpha would outlive a Worcester possibly even a Vaillant. The energy saving would nevre ever ever pay in the life of the new boiler compared to a totally reliable band D boiler which you have with all parts still readily available.

 

[corgiman]

I would whole heartedly agree Paul

 

[dirkgently]

So you reckon the Alpha is a good unit then?

I've just lost a lot of faith in it with the problems it's had, feels like it'll be one thing after another with the way it's been breaking. And it really is piddling water out from somewhere now.

Every time it goes wrong, it seems to cost £150-£200, I don't need many more of them before the cost of repairs starts to creep up to a significant portion of the cost of a new one.

How would you recommend I go about finding a reliable person to 'overhaul' it as you put it? The engineer I had last time started making noises about it not being worth repairing, and should start looking at replacing instead.

 

[PaulJR]

I am in a similar circumstance. Our Worcester is about 20 yrs old and we are told that spares are no longer made. I enquired with BG and was quoted £3500 plus some change for a Vaillant 837 eco tec plus. Given the unit would cost about £1000 and even including the magnetic filter (£100) and a power flush - (my water and they'll be here all day anyway?) I cant see more than £1500 in parts & fittings etc.

IMHO £2000 is a bit steep for two guys to spend a day replacing a boiler?

I don't know the exact rate Corgi (sorry Gas Safe) fitters charge but I thought £500 would be a ball park figure, I expected a price between 2-2.5k, I actually would pay BG a little (£2-300) more because if there are problems they just keep coming back, but £1500 extra, they are taking the p!ss.

 

[Paul Barker]

So you reckon the Alpha is a good unit then?.

that particular boiler is from an era when they were made extremely robustly it is the pinacle of Band D boiler design.


Due to the reputation of that boiler Baxi group bought the manufacturer. The importer at the time was a marketing company called Alpha, now mutated to Alphatherm, still a marketing organisation in essence. Alpha had sole rights to import the boiler to the
UK, so Baxi had to do a deal with them, they were paid off.

Alpha then had to find a new boiler to import as Baxi refused to sell them your excellent boiler, Baxi still make a variation of it today, but it isn't as well made as they were made when Alpha were involved, though the good design shines through.

When I was ALpha service agent that generation of boilers still had the original fans and still required very little attention.

On any boiler of that style the stuffing gland o ring in the hot water section of the diverter valve leaks domestic water there is a service kit with a new o ring and diaphragm.

If the system water is allowed to get dirty the entire diverter valve can need seeing to. I used to clean them and fit new seals it was quite hard work; a good hour taking it apart and cleaning it good. Then I would insist on cleansing the system in one way or another even if they wouldn't pay for a powerflush.

ALphas have a reputation amongst ignorant gas fitters for leaking, but it is not your model which leaks except the dhw issue which only occurs every 4 years.

To recondition your boiler would entile cleaning the plate heat exchanger service kit in both sides of the diverter valve check all seals prv and pressure guage. Probably allow 2 hrs for all that work by a person used to that boiler.There may be a few other issues that a familiar person would have to chceck like the fan and pump. As I said the fans of that generation were bullet proof and yours will probably be fine the aps's hardly ever failed. Actually they just keep on going like a Morris thousand. Such things as pcb's and thermisters are totally reliable on that boiler. I never needed to use my pcb or my fan or my gas valve all I ever seemed to do was muck about with diverter valves. We had loads of them in my patch on contract. Alpha will give you a maintnance contract with anual service it was £12 when i was doing them.

The reason parts remain available is because Baxi still use them in their own boilers, the Alpha parts used to come in a Baxi bag. I will grant you that because Alpha have to buy the parts from Baxi they are expensive but probably no more than Vaillant parts. If they were as well made as the original Alpha parts which are still going strong in most boilers then well worth it, but i can't say that. Although the baxi versions have been pretty good they haven't got the proven reliablility of the Alpha. Alpha did tell me that when they imported them they made stringent quality control specifications and got them made to a high standard just for them. It is obvious to me that the manufacturers forgot to tell Baxi they knew how to make the to a high standard and went back to their standard methods. Consequnetly cheap parts like o rings went back in and baxi got a reputation of squeeling noises and stuff.

The economy of a band D boiler is not very much different to a band B or A and the hot water economy is probably much closer as condensing boilers on the whole don't condense well on hot water..

i am too busy to come over and sort your boiler.

The probelm is there are only one or two anorachs who prefer to repair a good boiler than to sell an new one, and people like you are easy meat for the sellers.

 

[Paul Barker]

When i saw the baxi version of one in a mates van I asked Can I have that? Yes no problem.

SO I hung it on the wall in a mates flat, and started to fault find it. expansion vessel needed charging, did that and replaced PRV for good measure. On running it I found a new dhw microswitch was required and I put in a diaphragm anyway to set him right. . Checked it's settings, all correct.

Now he has a totaly reliable boiler and I know he won't be calling me every five minutes to fix it. I wouldn't have done that for a mate with any other boiler of that generation.

So that original customer was sold a new boiler quite likely because she was losing water from the system through the pressure relief valve due to the expansion vessel which oly required charging as I haven't been called back now six months later. then when she developed a hot water fault which took the form of making the heating go full on, as the microswitch told the boiler to fire for hot water, so it monitored the hot water temp sensor but as hot water wasn't running the diverter stayed in heating position. So the boiler fired up and heated the rads until it reached the maximum primary temp of 80 degrees and then modulated on and off to hold that temperature. This sort of behaviour is very easy for someone who understands boilers to comprehend but not for people who like to sell you boilers as that is more lucrative and doesn't require abilities which they don't posess because they have always taken the easy route of standing behind their corgi badge and telling you it isn't worth fixing, because they have a badge you believe they know what they are talking about.

So easier for everyone conscerned to sell you a new boiler and loads of people kept in jobs. Only you have to pay the cost and the environment pays for the unnecessary production of a boiler which costs the planet far more than ever the saving on fuel will.

the best thing the government could do for the environment is insist on a 20 year guarantee on all new white goods and we would go back to geting things which are designed propely.

 

[Paul Barker]

I am in a similar circumstance. Our Worcester is about 20 yrs old and we are told that spares are no longer made.

Next time it breaks down find out what part it needs and find one then tell them you have the part ready for them to fit.

 

[dirkgently]

So unless I get an engineer who takes pleasure in seeing an old boiler repaired rather than replaced, I must resign myself to having it replaced.
My most recent quote came out at just under £2200 for a Vaillant ecotec 837 with all the trimmings (powerflush, magnaclean, wireless stat).
Having priced up the items involved I reckon I'm not doing too badly, but would appreciate a second opinion.
Waiting on a further quote, but that guy was speccing a Glow worm 30cxi.
Bearing in mind we like our showers, is the glow worm going to do the business compared to the vaillant? How much cheaper would the glow worm quote have to be to make it worthwhile?

 

[simond]

The Glowworm is a cheaper build than the Vaillant. You would pay the extra if you could see them side by side.

I am sure either the Worcester (Junkers) 37Cdi or the Vaillant 837 will give you a fantastic service. Get it installed by a suitably recognised person and you will get 5yrs warranty.

I am one of those ignorant installers who thinks that the HW section leaks etc of the Alpha make it unwise to keep the boiler much longer. It is easy keeping a boiler going if you are in the trade with a van load of parts; it is not so funny if you are a householder with just the Yellow Pages for help.

 

[dirkgently]

Okay, so my third (so far) quote has come in for a Glow worm 30cxi, and while the quote does not specify a magnaclean, it does only come in at just under £1200!

To recap then:

BG branded Worcester Bosch 537 installed by British Gas at a cost of £3600.

Vaillant 837 installed by recommended local firm no.1 at a similar spec to BG £2200.

Glow worm 30cxi with local firm no.2 no magnaclean £1200.

I know you said if I sat the GW and the Vaillant next to each other I would pay for the quality but a grand? Will I be disappointed in hot water performance from a 30kw system?

Head is saying Vaillant, wallet is shouting Glow worm.

 

[simond]

If I could help here, the Glowworm quote is way too cheap. I do all the quotes for my company and there is no way we could afford to do a job of what I class as acceptable quality (and that includes the time spent powerflushing correctly) for that amount.

There is an old adage; if it seems too good to be true, it usually is.

I would expect the Glowworm to come out around £200 cheaper than the Vaillant, on an otherwise like for like job.

Personally, our experience with Magnacleans has been awful, I would never fit one of these plastic pieces of cr*d to my system. It will last as long as a prawn sandwich. That'll save you £100.

 

[Deleted member 105431]

I agree with simond, but why not ask the man who quoted for the vaillant to quote for the gw to the same spec?

Leave extortionate BG and cowboy £1200 quid man out of the equation.