Hi, sorry for the long post! Just thought I'd get as much info in as possible!
I'm renovating a Victorian terraced house in South London. I'm turning an old bedroom into a bathroom, having finished the work on the roof (which was falling down), I'm now ready to start the work in the actual room, which is at the top of the outrigger part of the house at the back. I've put some pictures/drawings together to help explain my questions, here's where the room is in the house:
www.matt-k.com/downloads/house/bathroom/floor/overview_of_house.png
I noticed that the floor was bouncing a bit so asked a builder friend if he could come in and take a look, he recommended that I install noggins to support the floor and stop "lateral torsion", which I did as per the pic below, as you can see I stripped the ceiling out from underneath the floor - it was asbestos and needed to come out anyway) so have access above and below.
www.matt-k.com/downloads/house/bathroom/floor/noggins.jpg
Problem is, having installed the noggins it's still bouncing quite a lot! As I want to install water UFH I'd really like to minimise it as much as possible. I think that it's the timbers being over 120 years old (they've done well considering!) is the issue, as it's not bouncing at the ends near the wall, only in the middle, and I can actually see the joists bending from underneath when someone jumps in the room above.
While doing the noggins I also noticed another potential issue, in that the header plate the joists sit on (not sure if that's the correct name!) on the partition wall side of the room... seems to be coming away from the wall. Also there's a stud wall in the room below and the header plate seems to rise up to it either side, as though the stud wall is supporting some of the weight of the floor above. It's not easy to see from the pics but I've taken some to try to illustrate what I mean:
www.matt-k.com/downloads/house/bathroom/floor/header_coming_away.jpg
www.matt-k.com/downloads/house/bathroom/floor/dodgy_header.jpg
I'm thinking that probably the best course of action would be to replace the floor, especially while I have it all open and access to it etc. With that in mind my plan is to:
1. Temporarily reroute the pipework currently in the floor (most is old and not used/connected, only 2 heating pipes which aren't too big a job to move)
2. Take out the floor
3. Patch-up the brickwork to provide a solid surface to attach the new floor
4. Install wooden header plates onto newly patched brickwork, using resit bolts both sides of the room
5. Hang new joists off header plates with joist hangers
6. Install noggins into the new joists
7. Use a router to cut out channels for pipework
8. Re install old and add any new pipework needed
Does that seem like a sensible plan? Is there anything blindingly obvious I need to include!?
I also have some questions generally about the best way to approach things:
1. The joists on the exterior wall side of the room are set into the brickwork as per the pics below. I've seen different schools of thought on whether it's best to reuse this approach when renovating. Does anyone have any recommendations as to whether it'd be best to reuse the current "joists set into brick" method (while covering the wood ends and insulating so prevent damp issues)? Or should I fill in the voids where the joists used to sit and use a wooden plate secured onto the wall with resin bolts?
www.matt-k.com/downloads/house/bathroom/floor/joists_into_dodgy_brickwork_2.jpg
www.matt-k.com/downloads/house/bathroom/floor/joists_into_dodgy_brickwork.jpg
2. Generally is it better to use joist hangers set into brick, like this:
www.matt-k.com/downloads/house/bathroom/floor/joists_hanger_into_brick.jpg
.... or a wooden header plate which is secured into the wall using resit bolts then joist hangers hung, like this:
www.matt-k.com/downloads/house/bathroom/floor/header_plate.jpg
I'm wondering whether the hangers into brick might be better for blockwork walls rather than for old buildings, of brick construction?
I know it's a long question so cheers if you read everything and got to the bottom! Any advice would be really appreciated!
Thanks, Matt
I'm renovating a Victorian terraced house in South London. I'm turning an old bedroom into a bathroom, having finished the work on the roof (which was falling down), I'm now ready to start the work in the actual room, which is at the top of the outrigger part of the house at the back. I've put some pictures/drawings together to help explain my questions, here's where the room is in the house:
www.matt-k.com/downloads/house/bathroom/floor/overview_of_house.png
I noticed that the floor was bouncing a bit so asked a builder friend if he could come in and take a look, he recommended that I install noggins to support the floor and stop "lateral torsion", which I did as per the pic below, as you can see I stripped the ceiling out from underneath the floor - it was asbestos and needed to come out anyway) so have access above and below.
www.matt-k.com/downloads/house/bathroom/floor/noggins.jpg
Problem is, having installed the noggins it's still bouncing quite a lot! As I want to install water UFH I'd really like to minimise it as much as possible. I think that it's the timbers being over 120 years old (they've done well considering!) is the issue, as it's not bouncing at the ends near the wall, only in the middle, and I can actually see the joists bending from underneath when someone jumps in the room above.
While doing the noggins I also noticed another potential issue, in that the header plate the joists sit on (not sure if that's the correct name!) on the partition wall side of the room... seems to be coming away from the wall. Also there's a stud wall in the room below and the header plate seems to rise up to it either side, as though the stud wall is supporting some of the weight of the floor above. It's not easy to see from the pics but I've taken some to try to illustrate what I mean:
www.matt-k.com/downloads/house/bathroom/floor/header_coming_away.jpg
www.matt-k.com/downloads/house/bathroom/floor/dodgy_header.jpg
I'm thinking that probably the best course of action would be to replace the floor, especially while I have it all open and access to it etc. With that in mind my plan is to:
1. Temporarily reroute the pipework currently in the floor (most is old and not used/connected, only 2 heating pipes which aren't too big a job to move)
2. Take out the floor
3. Patch-up the brickwork to provide a solid surface to attach the new floor
4. Install wooden header plates onto newly patched brickwork, using resit bolts both sides of the room
5. Hang new joists off header plates with joist hangers
6. Install noggins into the new joists
7. Use a router to cut out channels for pipework
8. Re install old and add any new pipework needed
Does that seem like a sensible plan? Is there anything blindingly obvious I need to include!?
I also have some questions generally about the best way to approach things:
1. The joists on the exterior wall side of the room are set into the brickwork as per the pics below. I've seen different schools of thought on whether it's best to reuse this approach when renovating. Does anyone have any recommendations as to whether it'd be best to reuse the current "joists set into brick" method (while covering the wood ends and insulating so prevent damp issues)? Or should I fill in the voids where the joists used to sit and use a wooden plate secured onto the wall with resin bolts?
www.matt-k.com/downloads/house/bathroom/floor/joists_into_dodgy_brickwork_2.jpg
www.matt-k.com/downloads/house/bathroom/floor/joists_into_dodgy_brickwork.jpg
2. Generally is it better to use joist hangers set into brick, like this:
www.matt-k.com/downloads/house/bathroom/floor/joists_hanger_into_brick.jpg
.... or a wooden header plate which is secured into the wall using resit bolts then joist hangers hung, like this:
www.matt-k.com/downloads/house/bathroom/floor/header_plate.jpg
I'm wondering whether the hangers into brick might be better for blockwork walls rather than for old buildings, of brick construction?
I know it's a long question so cheers if you read everything and got to the bottom! Any advice would be really appreciated!
Thanks, Matt