That's fairly close to the literal meaning of 'point' but, as I just wrote, could result in unworkably narrow 'permitted zones' ... and, as I've said, is of no value to "the man with a drill" if that 'point' is not visible.
'Safe Zone' created by 'current using equipment' ??
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In that case, the object is fed via an accessory or flex outlet.
It probably is (although it theoretically could just be a cable coming out of a small hole in the wall.
However, the problem is that even if there is an accessory/whatever, it is of no value to the man with a drill if it's not visible, because it is covered by the 'large object'.
Id say, welloften it is but not always though. Most of tge sockets or lampholders on a ring or radialhave, indeed, more tga6n one cable connected, in fact a modern way of wiring lighting means that the point (of utilisation) has only one cable to it.. if you consider that most are sockets of some type (after all a lampholder is merely a socket that you plug the lamp into) then, effectively the two cables are become effectively joined once you've plugged in, so yes its not a bad description.
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In essence we are saying that yes we have a set of rules that if followed and everybody knows the rules then we have minimised risks of damaging hidden cables, that is the prime objective of this rule. Once we start detailing away from a simple rule and include or exclude some less common possibilities we end up with a chapter of explanations rather than just a basic sentence for quick reckoning of an idea.
Keep the basic concept but we know there are things on the fringes that don't quite fit in neatly to our rules.
Keep the basic concept but we know there are things on the fringes that don't quite fit in neatly to our rules.
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It is, and it is that 'rule' that I have been asking about.
However, I personally still do not understand (and have seen no consensus of other views to help me understand) what is the intended interpretation of 'the rule' (522.6.202) in relation to a large piece current-using equipment attached to a wall.
Kind Regards, John
I shall try again although it is beyond me why you refuse to understand.
When being installed the cable will (hopefully) obviously be placed where it should be in relation to 522.6.202.
It is just that after fitting a large appliance over the point denoting the safe zones that point is no longer visible so anyone wanting to drill will have to be aware that the cable might be in any of the areas horizontal or vertical from the whole width and height of the appliance
OR
determine where the point actually is to narrow the areas of (so called) safe zones.
Safe zone for cabe equals danger zone for drill.
It is no different than the safe zones from, say, a socket being in all four directions but three of them might not contain any cable(s).
There is no intended interpretation of the rule in relation to a large piece current-using equipment attached to a wall; just common sense.
When being installed the cable will (hopefully) obviously be placed where it should be in relation to 522.6.202.
It is just that after fitting a large appliance over the point denoting the safe zones that point is no longer visible so anyone wanting to drill will have to be aware that the cable might be in any of the areas horizontal or vertical from the whole width and height of the appliance
OR
determine where the point actually is to narrow the areas of (so called) safe zones.
Safe zone for cabe equals danger zone for drill.
It is no different than the safe zones from, say, a socket being in all four directions but three of them might not contain any cable(s).
Well, you don't seem to 'understand', either, in the sense that you go on to write ...
... but I still don't get it. 522.6.202 defines where one is permitted to install buried cables (<50mm below surface). If you believe that there 'is no intended interpretation' of the reg in the case of large pieces of equipment then if such a piece of equipment IS attached to the wall, then where is one permitted to install such cables - 'nowhere', 'anywhere' or 'somewhere' (and, in the latter case, where?)?
We know all that, but it does not directly answer the question as to where it is permitted to install a buried cable in that situation You seem to be suggesting that it is permitted (i.e. an 'intended interpretation') to install the bury cable, before fixing the item to the wall, in the zone that would be permitted if the 'point of connection' (or whatever one cares to call it) was not going to be subsequently rendered non-visible. Is that your view (your interpretation of the reg)?
It's very different from the situation in which the object creating the zone remains visible.
If there were, some accessory, with cables buried in the zones created by it and, because they didn't like it aesthetically,the house owner built some permanent structure over it and/or perhaps 'wallpapered over it' (with the specific intent of making the accessory non-visible), would you regard it as still compliant for a cable to be buried in a zone which that accessory would have created had it remained visible?
If you need to ask whether wallpaper would indicate that there is a cable buried; the same as would a shaver light and socket then I may as well give up.
The biggest items in common use which must create safe zones (or we would not be able to get cables to them) are consumer units and electric showers. The safe zones for these items must be as wide and high as the item because, without removing them (or their covers), a person will not be able to determine where the cables run.
I was asking you what your answer to that question would be.
If I am correctly interpreting what you've just written to indicate that you would not regard an accessory hidden by wallpaper (or a 'structure, or whatever) as creating a 'safe zone', then what is the difference between wallpaper (or whatever) and a mirror/whatever?
Can we agree that the effect of 522.6.202 and associated regs is to prohibit the burying of cables <50mm below the surface unless they are SWA etc, in metal conduit or in one of the permitted zones defined in the reg? If so then if, as above, there is nothing which is acceptably generating a 'safe zone', then presumably one is not permitted (in the eyes of BS7671) to bury cable in that wall (unless it it is SWA etc. or in metal conduit) ??
We've considered CU and showers (along with extractor fans) and I think we are all agreed that, as you say, in such cases it is totally appropriate that one should be allowed to bury cables in horizonal and vertical zones defined by the height and width of the visible item.
However, I started this discussion specifically in relation to much larger (albeit less common) items, it being a spin-off from another thread where we were discussing illuminated bathroom mirrors which are fixed to a wall - but there are other examples. The problem then is that if the 'permitted zones' (for buried cables) come to be a substantial proportion of the entire wall, they becomes of increasingly less value to a person who subsequently wants to know where it is most likely to be safe to drill.
As I've said, if the regs wanted to address this issue, they could (but don't
). As I've suggested, they could, for example, specify horizontal and vertical 'zones' (where cables were permitted to be buried) of specified 'width' (maybe 100 or 150 mm, radiating from the mid-point of a (large) visible item.I would go back to the start of the thread, as it has meandered. 522.6.202 refers to 3 terms which create the zones. The terms are defined in Part 2 as follows:
1. Point - A termination of the fixed wiring intended for the connection of current-using equipment.
2. Accessory - A device, other than current-using equipment, associated with such equipment or with the wiring of an installation.
3. Switchgear - An assembly of main and auxiliary switching equipment for operation, regulation, protection or other control of an electrical installation.
Item 1 covers a cable sticking out of a wall to connect a shower (for example).
Item 2 covers a flex outlet plate to connect an oven (for example).
Item3 covers a socket to allow a home-owner plug in their TV (for example).
As an electrician, the requirement is then to run the cable horizontally or vertically to the item. I saw a post querying the dimensions, but that's nit-picking as anybody should be able to use a level.
One final comment is that there is no such thing as a 'safe zone', 'prescribed zone', preferred zone' or ' zone of protection'.
1. Point - A termination of the fixed wiring intended for the connection of current-using equipment.
2. Accessory - A device, other than current-using equipment, associated with such equipment or with the wiring of an installation.
3. Switchgear - An assembly of main and auxiliary switching equipment for operation, regulation, protection or other control of an electrical installation.
Item 1 covers a cable sticking out of a wall to connect a shower (for example).
Item 2 covers a flex outlet plate to connect an oven (for example).
Item3 covers a socket to allow a home-owner plug in their TV (for example).
As an electrician, the requirement is then to run the cable horizontally or vertically to the item. I saw a post querying the dimensions, but that's nit-picking as anybody should be able to use a level.
One final comment is that there is no such thing as a 'safe zone', 'prescribed zone', preferred zone' or ' zone of protection'.
Good to see you. I hope all is well with you and yours and am grateful for your input into this discussion.
The question I asked (spun off from another thread) relates specifically to large items of current-using equipment, the original thread having been about large illuminated mirrors fixed to a wall such that they could not be removed 'without use of a tool' (and with the means of connection to the electricity supply not visible).
In that situation, which, if any, of the three things specified (your 1, 2 & 3) would the item represent (i.e. would it create a 'zone' per 522.6.202?) , and what would be the dimensions of the zones it created.
This whole thread has been confused (I guess your 'meandering') since, despite my repeated attempts to get them back 'on question', people have been persistently talking about where 'a man with a drill' should consider cables might be (in what to him,/her would be 'dangerous zones'), whereas I have, from the start, been asking very specifically about where, per BS7671, one is permitted to bury cables when the only visible 'clue' is a large current-using item fixed to the wall. They are different questions.
Kind Regards, John
All totally agreed, other than that I think I would personally regard a socket as "2" (an accessory), rathre than "3" (switchgear)
Indeed so - but all of us involved in this discussion have always known all that
The question I asked (spun off from another thread) relates specifically to large items of current-using equipment, the original thread having been about large illuminated mirrors fixed to a wall such that they could not be removed 'without use of a tool' (and with the means of connection to the electricity supply not visible).
In that situation, which, if any, of the three things specified (your 1, 2 & 3) would the item represent (i.e. would it create a 'zone' per 522.6.202?) , and what would be the dimensions of the zones it created.
Totally agreed. That is why I always try to remember to put "safe zone" in quotes (I often {grudgingly!} use the term, since it's the terminology that so many others use) or. preferably, refer to them as 'permitted zones' (permitted to bury cables).
This whole thread has been confused (I guess your 'meandering') since, despite my repeated attempts to get them back 'on question', people have been persistently talking about where 'a man with a drill' should consider cables might be (in what to him,/her would be 'dangerous zones'), whereas I have, from the start, been asking very specifically about where, per BS7671, one is permitted to bury cables when the only visible 'clue' is a large current-using item fixed to the wall. They are different questions.
Kind Regards, John
John, I think that, inevitably, it means that they may be buried anywhere in said zones and should always be treated as if they might actually be anywhere in said zones unless we have conclusive proof that it is buried in more restricted bands within such zones.
Ideally, an international law making all items connections within say 100mm of the centre or within 100mm of the top right of the item in in its normal intended mounting orientation or some alternative convention might be helpful but will never exist. So , anywhere they might be is the answer, even if it includes almost the whole wall.
Its not what we like but it is what we have.
Ideally, an international law making all items connections within say 100mm of the centre or within 100mm of the top right of the item in in its normal intended mounting orientation or some alternative convention might be helpful but will never exist. So , anywhere they might be is the answer, even if it includes almost the whole wall.
Its not what we like but it is what we have.
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