Should I replace this consumer unit?

[JohnW2]

C'mon guys, stop arguing. Getting flashbacks to childhood when dad would come home drunk.

As I said, I'm not really arguing. Rather, I'm trying to gain an understanding of why, other than for location-specific travel-related expenses (which, ideally, could/would be specified explicitly), a given piece of work undertaken by a self-employed electrician should cost appreciably (maybe considerably) more in some parts of the country than other parts.

Hows this quote?

Fine. There's absolutely nothing wrong with it - although, if I were the customer, I'd want to know more about this CU that you were proposing to install.

However, in terms of this discussion, the question is the extent to which the figures would (or would not) differ if the same work were being undertaken in some totally different sort of part of the country, and why.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

... I'm trying to gain an understanding of why, other than for location-specific travel-related expenses (which, ideally, could/would be specified explicitly), a given piece of work undertaken by a self-employed electrician should cost appreciably (maybe considerably) more in some parts of the country than other parts.

It occurs to me, given the fairly defensive responses to some of my questions, that it might seem a bit less critical/accusatory (which was never my intention) if I asked the question the other way around, namely ...

.... why, other than possibly a reduction due to lower travel-related costs, should a self-employed electrician be paid less for undertaking a given piece of work in one location than he/she would be paid for undertaking the same work in some other part of the country?​

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

I apologies for the length of this! I need not tell you that brevity of writing is not one of my conspicuous virtues

t's not so much 'findings' as 'the way it has been (dictated by clients) for decades and, perhaps more important, the way in which all those with whom I have been 'competing for work' have done things. I have, however, somewhat over-simplified how things work for me (see below).

As above, it has not really been 'by choice', even though it has seemed pretty reasonable ('very fair') to me.

I pretty much work the same way by starting with my day rate but look at the 'predicted additional costs' and simply add them on to reach the rate for a job

Whether or not 'evening out' is a practical and reasonable way of doing things probably depends a lot upon the nature and extent of the work, and the extent to which overheads are fairly consistent across jobs..

As above, I have oversimplified 'my world'. As with any self-employed person (or company running a business), my 'charge out rate' takes into account all the standard, fairly predictable, annual overheads, translated into a 'per hour' figure on the basis of an estimated number of hours work per year - which is why those 'charge out rates' are so much higher than the hourly pay rates that an employee would expect for doing the same work. Those 'built-in overheads include (for a person like me) such things as insurance, provision for holidays and sickness, part of NIC, heating/lighting of 'home office', (part) provision/maintenance of a vehicle, telephone costs, cost of maintaining/replacing IT etc. equipment, 'office supplies' etc. etc. and a provision for 'reasonable amounts' of travel (including 'travel time')

Whilst ('over-simplifying') I have said that I explicitly re-claim the cost of 'expenses' from a client, that only relates to expenses beyond those which are already built into my 'hourly charge'. This is usually reflected in the contracts, which generally specify rates of reimbursement for mileage beyond some specified figure (commonly 25-50 miles per day) and also payment for 'travelling time' beyond some specified figure (commonly about 2 hours per day) - so, in reality, I do not have to claim extra for 'travel' all that often - since most of my 'overheads' are covered by the figures 'averaged-in' to my hourly charge.

That pretty much sums up my methodology except I also include the specific costs

I'm sure that the situation varies a lot according to the nature of the work and the trade/profession concerned. In my world, one of the very first questions one almost invariably gets asked is about one's 'hourly rate', and if someone based in central London quoted a much higher figure than, say, a person based in rural Cornwall or Wales, they simply would not get any work!

If that rate is calculated 'reasonably' that's fair enough. Customers/clients in London will undoubtedly expect and accept a much higher rate than they would in some different places "because that's how it is" - but that doesn't stop me asking whether "that's how it should be", at least in some contexts.

Despite what you and others may think, I am not being awkward or argumentative for argument's sake but, rather, genuinely am interested to know the answer to the "Why?" question - since I suspect that, at least in some cases, the answer may be "because that'show it is"! As I've said, there are certainly situations in which the cost of services, and maybe goods, is justifiably appreciably higher in places like London - particularly when 'premises' are involved, but I'm far less convinced in some other contexts (trades/professions).

The 'total' is obviously the most important bottom-line for a customer/client, but everything depends on how 'reasonably' your (differing) totals were calculated.

If you merely took the 'hourly rate' you would charge for work within walking distance if you lived in, say, rural Wales and added to it a genuine estimate of travelling costs and some reasonable amount of remuneration for 'travelling time' and 'being away from home time', then I think that would be fine, and fair to everyone. However, I suspect that a good few people in that position would charge a higher hourly rate for work in an 'expensive' place (like London), before adding on those legitimate 'addons' - solely because "rates are higher in London".

As a matter of interest, to help my understanding, if you lived in an expensive part of London and worked as a full-time in-house (no travelling) employee at a site within walking distance of your home, would you expect a higher hourly rate of pay than if you were in exactly the same situation, other than living in some very rural part of the UK? Similarly, what if you were self-employed and (largely as is the case for me these days, although not in the past), virtually all of your work was undertaken 'remotely' ('from home') - would you then feel that you should charge appreciably more if you were doing it from your home in central London than if your home were somewhere very rural and 'cheap'?

I would include my running costs regardless of where I'd be based, ie if I worked from home in an expensive location my fee would by necessity be higher than from a cheaper location.

In other words, I suppose what I'm really asking is whether your 'London rates' are much higher than they would be elsewhere simply because you have added a genuine estimate of travel-related overheads etc., or is it at least partially because 'London is an expensive place'?

Kind Regards, John

I personally always try to be genuine with my customers as I want them to come back. No I don't simply add a London weighting, I base it on expected costs.

As a silly example I quoted a contractor a day rate to attend a site in Finsbury Circus and included 80 miles, parking etc. That was simply my 'standard' London rate. When he asked me to build a panel in his workshop 15 miles from home it was within my basic 'home' rate and without negotiation I invoiced the lower rate, it was never commented on, nor was the London rate. Both were regularly intermixed on my weekly invoices.
However another subby invoiced the higher rate for working in the workshop (he lived much closer) and negotiations followed for further employment.

 

[SUNRAY]

C'mon guys, stop arguing. Getting flashbacks to childhood when dad would come home drunk.

I'm certainly not arguing and I don't see that being the way this thread has gone, All I'm doing is explaining how it seems to work in the part of the industry I'm working in.

When I was doing the same sort of work as an employee rather than SE I would have to attach the receipts to my time sheet which is effectively the way John works (although I assume he just lists the costs rather than attach them).

 

[JohnW2]

When I was doing the same sort of work as an employee rather than SE I would have to attach the receipts to my time sheet which is effectively the way John works (although I assume he just lists the costs rather than attach them).

"Chance would be a fine thing"

The bigger the client, the more silly/pedantic do they become in requiring receipts/invoices for every single penny of claimed expenses. The worst of all are government departments, agencies and the like (including the NHS).

However, as I've explained, all of the 'standard overheads' are already built into my hourly rate, so I don't need/bother to claim for much - basically only fairly 'large'; items of expenditure, and when the figures are large (like parking in London, train/air travel or hotels etc.), it's reasonable enough that they want 'documentary evidence'!

KInd Regards, John

 

[Murdochcat]

C'mon guys, stop arguing. Getting flashbacks to childhood when dad would come home drunk.

Hows this quote?

The off topic discussion has ruined this thread completely and is a trait of the people who did it

Shame the mods don’t split it off

 

[Murdochcat]

Hows this quote?

Looks better but you need written confirmation that they will provide an EIC and Part P compliance too

 

[flameport]

Hows this quote?

Better, although for domestic quotes VAT should be included in the prices and not added on as a separate item.

Still very limited, as in no suggestion of what brand or consumer unit will be used or whether it will contain any spare ways for future additions.

 

[JohnW2]

The off topic discussion has ruined this thread completely and is a trait of the people who did it ... Shame the mods don’t split it off

I think the OP's questions were answered as well as we could a good few pages back.

As for the 'off-topic discussion', I should perhaps remind you that it all started when, in post #25, you said that you couldn't comment on how reasonable the quote was without knowing where in the UK the OP was. I made what may have been a mistake by asking "why that should be?" - and the rest, as they say, is history.

 

[JohnW2]

Better, although for domestic quotes VAT should be included in the prices and not added on as a separate item.

It's certainly the bottom-line price which matters to customers who are not VAT registered, but I have to say that I have very rarely seen a quote or invoice which does not list VAT separately. I suppose that is probably in part due to the fact that, even if a customer appears to be 'domestic', no-one can be certain that the customer is not VAT registered.

At least the VAT was mentioned in the quote and added on to give a total. A good few of the quotes I get (from VAT-registered people/companies) give only the 'excluding VAT'; figures (without saying so), so that an unsuspecting customer would then get a shock when they received an invoice which included the VAT!

Still very limited, as in no suggestion of what brand or consumer unit will be used or whether it will contain any spare ways for future additions.

Indeed. I made that point above. I wouldn't accept a quote for 'a car' or 'decorating my house', so why should I for installation of an 'unspecvified CU'?

Kind Regards, John

 

[Murdochcat]

I think the OP's questions were answered as well as we could a good few pages back.

As for the 'off-topic discussion', I should perhaps remind you that it all started when, in post #25, you said that you couldn't comment on how reasonable the quote was without knowing where in the UK the OP was. I made what may have been a mistake by asking "why that should be?" - and the rest, as they say, is history.

So why didn’t you start a new thread?

 

[JohnW2]

So why didn’t you start a new thread?

Probably because it was addressing a statement that you made in this thread, I guess.

We go through brief phases of starting new threads when essentially 'completed' ones go off at tangents - but most people, including myself, usually forget about doing it fairly quickly. In forums that I help manage, the software allows us (c.f. 'mods') to very easily split threads, but I think it's been said that the mods cannot do that too easily with the software this forum uses.

 

[securespark]

It occurs to me, given the fairly defensive responses to some of my questions, that it might seem a bit less critical/accusatory (which was never my intention) if I asked the question the other way around, namely ...

.... why, other than possibly a reduction due to lower travel-related costs, should a self-employed electrician be paid less for undertaking a given piece of work in one location than he/she would be paid for undertaking the same work in some other part of the country?​

Kind Regards, John

You need a bit of "Frozen" in your life...

 

[Cmcb]

Resurrection for update.
I shopped around, had a few quotes from close-by Edinburgh and Leith companies. Most ranging between £1200 and £1500.
Then i discovered an old guy on Facebook. He had moved the the Borders (where i live) with plans to retire but his wife has been promoting him on every local group in the Borders and he is busier than he has ever been.

Anyway, work done for £400.

 

[Murdochcat]

Did he forget his spirit level ?

And I’d like to see the tails entry points too?

Can you post a photo showing the circuit breakers?

And what paperwork were you given?