shower switch regs

[FingRinal]

The main problem is that people don't understand that the Wiring Regs were not written specifically for the Domestic sphere of electrical installations.[/b]

 

[saxondale]

MOD 8 ?



that wasnt abuse - the crap that came after ? well thats a different kettle of fish

you wanna be banning BAS for trolling rather than deleting the guys telling him to **** off

 

[FingRinal]

John,

perhaps BAS is a moderator

 

[Softus]

There is no danger from an electric shower in NORMAL use.

That's your opinion, not mine.

What danger is there in NORMAL use? The answer is there are NONE in NORMAL use.

Putting words in bold and/or capitals doesn't alter the fact that it's your opinion, not mine.

What specific danger is there from an electric shower from a user perspective in NORMAL use that would warrant a separate means of emergency switching that would be quicker and easier to operate than stepping out of the shower?

Any specific danger that means that being in, or out of, the shower, is an irrelevant detail.

This incident you describe is not idicative of NORMAL use. It is indicative of a FAULT.

In your definition of the world, the pull cord isolating switch has no virtue. My world is different.

Also, you appear to think than entering the bathroom (the location of the fault and the smoke and the HAZARD) in order to operate the switch is safer than taking a minute to remove a bits of junk to gain access to the CU??

You appear to think that I appear to think things that I don't think and have not said. At no point have I said that the people in the smoke-filled room incident entered a bathroom.

There is no Regulation that governs how peopl store items in their house. If people want to remove batteries from smoke alarms or put junk in front of the their CU, that's their look out.

Foreseeability of circumstances is a key element of the law governing negligence and duty of care. A safe installation is one that is safe in all foreseeable circumstances.

You might wish for the cord of a pull switch to drop down into the shower area with the switch located directly above it, but I wouldn't, even if the ceiling were high enough for Zone 3.

I would never wish for that, so we share that lack of wish.

And would placing the means of isolation in such a place INCREASE the risk to the user?

Frankly, I don't see how a pull cord switch presents an additional hazard.

You can't see that having a pull cord switch so close to the shower that it can be operated without having to reach out of the shower or step out of the shower is not an additional hazard? CRICKEY!!

If I remove the double negative from that statement, it implies that you think I can see that it is an additional hazard. Why would that surprise you?

In the absence of specific instructions (specific needs), it is common practice and good practice to install a DP shower switch in close proximity to the shower location.

According to which set of standards?

Your for staters it would appear.

I was asking which set of standards you're using to determine that it's "good practice to install a DP shower switch in close proximity to the shower location." (sic.). "Your for staters" isn't any kind of answer to that question.

But there is not a specific Reg which requires this. And if there were specific needs for a shower installation (i.e. for a special need case) we would not be talking about a bog standard shower installation in a bod standard house used by ordinary people.

Well you might not be, but I am.

Enlighten me

I really don't see it as being within my remit to provide you with enlightenment, so I humbly decline that request.

Readily accessible to whom?

Anyone who needs to use the switch.

Then it can be somewhere else can't it?

If that somewhere else is readily accessible, then yes.

You talk in forked tongue. Can't run to the CU to switch off the shower, but we can run to the CU to switch off the cooker???

Showers aren't used to heat up chip fat. Cookers are usually on the same floor level as the CU. I don't accept your implied corollary.

Plus let't not expand the pedantry in the sphere of chip pans - it was just an illustration that in NORMAL use, a cooker can present a hazard. In NORMAL use a shower doesn't.

Chip pans are not spherical.

There is nothing UNSAFE about a shower switch not being in the bathroom or just outside because there is not specific BS7671 Reg to say that a shower requires a means of emergency switching.

Perhaps you're someone who believes that adhering to BS7671 makes it impossible to produce an unsafe installation. I'm not of that opinion.

The main problem is that people don't understand that the Wiring Regs were not written specifially for the Domestic sphere of electrical installations.

You think one thing, and I think a different thing. That's isn't a problem, it's just a fact.

 

[dingbat]

Oh, my, god!

Softus - BAS / BAS - Softus... spot the difference.

Suddenly, I can't!

Aaaargh!

 

[FingRinal]

Lawd..you still picking over it are you? Perhaps you can stick to the OP instead of trying to cleverly side-track so as to cover your tracks.

Be so kind as to tell us exactly WHAT danger we can expect from an electric shower in NORMAL use? Can you do this please? Then expand this answer to show why EMERGENCY switching is required for a domestic electric shower.

Why oh why do you think a domestic electric shower requires emergency switching?

Please show me any shower instructions which refer to 'emergency' switching?

Put a waterproof EMERGENCY STOP button IN your shower cubicle if you need it.

Or put one outside the bathroom door.

I just hope that no-one lives alone just in case the EMERGENCY STOP button needs to be pressed in the event of some freakish danger posed by an electric shower in NORMAL use.

Ah, wait a minute. You probably think it is or should be illegal for a domestic electric shower to be installed or operated unless there is a 'safety person' standing guard by the shower switch - just in case!!!!

Cookers are usually on the same floor level as the CU

And????

 

[RF Lighting]

Be so kind as to tell us exactly WHAT danger we can expect from an electric shower in NORMAL use?

Scalding.

 

[FingRinal]

Scalding...

So how do you plan to remove the danger of scalding?

(assuming of course that the built in safety features have all failed).

 

[RF Lighting]

I don't. I was just answering your question.

 

[Softus]

Lawd..you still picking over it are you?

In the same way that you are, I suppose I am.

Perhaps you can stick to the OP instead of trying to cleverly side-track so as to cover your tracks.

I'm merely responding to the points that you raised.

Be so kind as to tell us exactly WHAT danger we can expect from an electric shower in NORMAL use?

If you think there's no danger, then that's fine by me. It isn't my mission in life to persuade you of anything.

Can you do this please? Then expand this answer to show why EMERGENCY switching is required for a domestic electric shower.

Why oh why do you think a domestic electric shower requires emergency switching?

Please show me any shower instructions which refer to 'emergency' switching?

Put a waterproof EMERGENCY STOP button IN your shower cubicle if you need it.

You're getting a bit hung up on the word "emergency". If you believe that a DP switch near the CU, on a different floor level, is adequate provision for isolation in all circumstances, then by all means please go ahead and use that method in all of your installations. I prefer to take a different approach.

Or put one outside the bathroom door.

By all means put one outside the bathroom door if you think that's a better place than behind the boxes of Christmas decorations.

Cookers are usually on the same floor level as the CU.

And????

You brought up cookers, not me.

 

[FingRinal]

OK, someone finally said scalding. Now the discussion can move on to the next phase of risk assessment.

There is a risk of scalding (however small) if a shower malfunctions and the required safety features also fail. So what good is a shower switch located outside the bathroom or at the other side of the bathroom? And why doesn't the IEE, BS, NICEIC etc. make emergency switching a specific requirement?

I said in a previous answer that if there was a SPECFIC requirement based on risk assessment, there may be a requirement to rethink design. Does it apply in a typical domestic situation - highly unlikely.

The NICEIC have this to say on the matter:

'If a local means of electrical isolation and/or a means of swtching off for mechanical maintenance is required, the shower should be connected through a suitably located switch. RCD protection is often recommended by the shower unit manufacturer, but is not generally a requirment of BS7671'.

Now, the NICEIC gets some stick from some people, but the only criticism of their technical output is that it may at times be overly zealous.

To the OP I say this:

it may be preferable for the shower switch to be located closer to the bathroom but there IS NOT a specific BS7671 Regulations that requires it.

 

[Softus]

The NICEIC have this to say on the matter...

The NICEIC guidance is irrelevant.

it may be preferable for the shower switch to be located closer to the bathroom

Why? In what circumstances would it not be "preferable".

...there IS NOT a specific BS7671 Regulations that requires it.

Yeah there is: 476-03-04.

 

[FingRinal]

The NICEIC have this to say on the matter...

The NICEIC guidance is irrelevant.

it may be preferable for the shower switch to be located closer to the bathroom

Why? In what circumstances would it not be "preferable".

...there IS NOT a specific BS7671 Regulations that requires it.

Yeah there is: 476-03-04.

It would NOT be preferable when it is NOT prefered. Simple!

476-03-04 refers to EMERGENCY SWITCHING - not applicable to a domestic electric shower. Simple!

NICEIC guidance is irrelevant. Only one word for someone who thinks that. Simple!

 

[Softus]

it may be preferable for the shower switch to be located closer to the bathroom

Why? In what circumstances would it not be "preferable".

It would NOT be preferable when it is NOT prefered. Simple!

What is an example of circumstances where it's not preferable?

 

[FingRinal]

I'll leave you to mess around with messing around.

The point has been made and the OP has the CORRECT information that there IS NOT a specific regulation which requires a shower switch to be located in a bathroom or adjacent to a bathroom.