shower switch regs

[happyhero]

Hi can anybody guide me to the regs regarding the shower isolation switch siting?

I am helping my neighbour do his bathroom and he has an electric shower which he is replacing with another electric shower. I noticed he does not have a pull cord switch etc anywhere near the bathroom so I asked him about it and he said he has a switch downstairs under the stairs and they are used to it as it has been like that for years.

I am not sure that is satisfactory and whether it needs to be changed to meet current regs if he is only replacing the existing shower with like for like (both 9.5kw) in fact I could not find a definite reg about it only things like the isolation point has to be accessible which I suppose it is.

Is there a regulation regarding where this switch should be located, ie maximum meters from shower, that also states there has to be one?

Seems funny to me them switching a switch downstairs under the stairs then going up to use the shower upstairs etc etc but is there anything wrong with that layout and does he need to alter the installation to meet current regs if he is just replacing the shower unit?

Any help appreciated.

 

[passerv]

Local isolation springs to mind

 

[ban-all-sheds]

It's not satisfactory and it does need to be changed and there are applicable regs.

But would quoting them do any good? Would he take any notice whatsoever?

 

[FingRinal]

It's not satisfactory and it does need to be changed and there are applicable regs.

But would quoting them do any good? Would he take any notice whatsoever?

Well, post them for starters and let's discuss...

 

[happyhero]

yes they would I would persuade him, can you give me a link or tell me the reg in the IEE regs so I can look it up please

 

[ban-all-sheds]

462-01-02

462-01-03

 

[FingRinal]

Thanks for posting the Regs in the old money and for remembering that I don't yet have a 17th on CDrom.

But WHY do you think these apply specifically to a DP Shower switch in a domestic electrical installation wrt the OP?

 

[FingRinal]

OK, the above Regs don't specifically apply to the OP.

There are no Regs specific to the OP.

 

[JohnD]

Surely it would be reasonable to say to the OP

"A switch close to the point of use is advisable so you can easily turn it on and off without using the stairs, and also so that anybody doing maintenence work can isolate it"

"Putting a switch in the bathroom would be notifiable work, but you could put one just outside the bathroom door if you are suitably competent. Or engage an electrician who is a member of a self certification scheme"

"It is also advisable to protect a shower circuit with an RCD for safety. This may be a requirement of the shower manufacturer's instructions"

"There is no obligation to bring an existing installation up to modern standards"

 

[FingRinal]

Sensible advice John.

Personally, I don't like pull switches, especially for showers, inside the bathroom and close to the bath/shower basin.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I suppose it depends on whether you approach it with the mindset of looking for reasons why a regulation applies, and why you should comply with it, or with the mindset of looking for reasons why it doesn't apply and can be ignored.

462-01-01 and -02 could be met by the shower MCB, but in a domestic situation where the MCB is remote from the shower, and the person turning it off is unlikely to possess lockout devices, -03 can't be met by use of the MCB, unless some makeshift way to indicate that it shouldn't be turned on, or a verbal "don't turn that on" is considered "suitable provision".

Maybe it is, but if you argue that then you're looking for ways not to comply with a regulation in the usual way, and in this case the usual way is to have an isolation switch in, or just outside the shower location, not under the stairs.

Personally, I don't like pull switches, especially for showers, inside the bathroom and close to the bath/shower basin.

Maybe you don't but there's nothing non-compliant about them, nor are they even deprecated.

 

[FingRinal]

To the OP,

there is no specific regulation to have the shower switch inside the bathroom next to the shower. The modern trend is to move them outside the bathroom, or to place them out of site if there is an airing cupboard next door.

If it works for the user and there is no specific reason why the switch should be moved, it doesn't need to be moved.

I don't wriggle out of Regs, if anything I err on the zealous.

 

[Softus]

can you give me a link or tell me the reg in the IEE regs so I can look it up please

476-03-04.

In this regulation, a "readily accessible" isolating switch is given as alternative to that switch being part of a fixed appliance.

Under the stairs on a different floor of the building isn't a readily accessible alternative in any language.

 

[FingRinal]

476-03-04 comes under the heading Emergency Switching and explicitly states that 'This means may be incorporated in the appliance, or if separate from the appliance, shall be in a readily accessible position'. The Regulation is also explicitly clarified with - 'which may give rise to danger in NORMAL use...' There is no danger from an electric shower in NORMAL use. We are not talking about an industrial lathe or band saw here.

What specific danger is there from an electric shower from a user perspective in NORMAL use that would warrant a separate means of emergency switching that would be quicker and easier to operate than stepping out of the shower? And how would certain explicit Regs be satisfied if a means of emergency switching were so positioned that it could be readily reached by someone taking a shower without having to reach or step out of the shower to operate it? And would placing the means of isolation in such a place INCREASE the risk to the user?

It's important not to confuse a standard method of practice with the Regs. In the absence of specific instructions (specific needs), it is common practice and good practice to install a DP shower switch in close proximity to the shower location. But there is not a specific Reg which requires this. And if there were specific needs for a shower installation (i.e. for a special need case) we would not be talking about a bog standard shower installation in a bod standard house used by ordinary people.

But readily accessible? Readily accessible to whom? Readily accessible for what purpose?

A cooker switch IS important, not least because it can be used to switch off a hot pan of chip fat IF it is located in suitable position.

If the people using the shower are happy with the location of the switch and there is no specific reason (risk assessment) why it needs to be re-located, there is no BS7671 regulation which requires it to be relocated.

 

[Softus]

There is no danger from an electric shower in NORMAL use.

That's your opinion, not mine.

What specific danger is there from an electric shower from a user perspective in NORMAL use that would warrant a separate means of emergency switching that would be quicker and easier to operate than stepping out of the shower?

Filling a room with smoke whilst in bed at night is an example I've seen happen twice. On each occasion, the occupant was greatly relieved to have a local switch to isolate the shower, rather than have to stumble downstairs and remove the abundant brooms, ironing boards and skateboards that fill most people's cupboards where the CU is located.

And how would certain explicit Regs be satisfied if a means of emergency switching were so positioned that it could be readily reached by someone taking a shower without having to reach or step out of the shower to operate it?

It being a switch would pretty much satisfy the need to for it to be a switch. But you don't have to have it within reach of someone standing in the shower tray if you don't want to, and I never suggested that it should be.

And would placing the means of isolation in such a place INCREASE the risk to the user?

Frankly, I don't see how a pull cord switch presents an additional hazard.

In the absence of specific instructions (specific needs), it is common practice and good practice to install a DP shower switch in close proximity to the shower location.

According to which set of standards?

But there is not a specific Reg which requires this. And if there were specific needs for a shower installation (i.e. for a special need case) we would not be talking about a bog standard shower installation in a bod standard house used by ordinary people.

Well you might not be, but I am.

But readily accessible?

Yes.

Readily accessible to whom?

Anyone who needs to use the switch.

Readily accessible for what purpose?

Electrical isolation of the fixed appliance.

A cooker switch IS important, not least because it can be used to switch off a hot pan of chip fat IF it is located in suitable position.

A hot pan of chip fat will remain hot if you turn off the cooker, and could still ignite after that moment. The cooker isolating switch doesn't mitigate that risk any more than the [remote] circuit breaker.

If the people using the shower are happy with the location of the switch and there is no specific reason (risk assessment) why it needs to be re-located, there is no BS7671 regulation which requires it to be relocated.

The consumer's happiness has nothing to do with safe practice.