Ticking boiler -PLEASE HELP-

You have a very unusual set up, so I have drawn a sketch showing what, I think, they system looks like.

6qc17w2.jpg


As you will see, I have some queries.

1. Where does the 15mm pipe marked ? go (top of picture)

2. Is there a vent pipe? (hangs over the Feed and Expansion tank)

3. Is the pipe marked the feed from the Feed and Expansion Tank - the small tank?

4. Is there a return to the boiler from the cylinder as shown?


My feeling is that the two valves marked D and E are for filling purposes only.

All the pipes seem to go upwards. Are the boiler and all the radiators etc upstairs relative to your picture?

Can anyone explain to me why even when water in taps is damn hot and CH is switched off boiler is still firing up every 2-3min for 30-40sec.

The only reason I can think of is that the CH thermostat is just shutting the motorized valve; it is not stopping the pump and boiler. The only way this can be confirmed is by a wiring diagram of the installation.
 
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D_Hailsham You're the best!

Sorry for my delayed response but work and our little baby girl takes all my time :)
D_Hailsham said:
As you will see, I have some queries.

1. Where does the 15mm pipe marked ? go (top of picture)
2. Is there a vent pipe? (hangs over the Feed and Expansion tank)
3. Is the pipe marked the feed from the Feed and Expansion Tank - the small tank?
4. Is there a return to the boiler from the cylinder as shown?

this picture should give answer to your questions
6qc17w2.jpg
and mine:
6qc17w2newzk1.jpg

I'm at work but I will check later about the vent pipe.

Looking at the picture by closing valve D and leaving valve E open I should be able to keep HW from overheating.
Other thing that's bugging me is that both valves D&E are open and I think (I'm not very good in physics) to create optimum water flow one of them should be closed and the other open.

D_Hailsham said:
All the pipes seem to go upwards. Are the boiler and all the radiators etc upstairs relative to your picture?
No, there is 3 rads upstairs and one rad, boiler and HW tank on the ground floor.

D_Hailsham said:
The only reason I can think of is that the CH thermostat is just shutting the motorized valve; it is not stopping the pump and boiler. The only way this can be confirmed is by a wiring diagram of the installation.
but even if the wiring is wrong and I'm gonna make it right (room tstat shuts boiler when no more heat is needed) I still wont be able to control HW separately and while CH&HW switch is on and temperature of the water in boiler drops it's still gonna fire it up to heat already hot water in tank, is that correct?

thanks
 

I'm at work but I will check later about the vent pipe.

Please do as there does not seem to be one and the 15mm pipe, which you say is the cold water feed from F & E is too small to be a combined feed and expansion

Looking at the picture by closing valve D and leaving valve E open I should be able to keep HW from overheating.

Other thing that's bugging me is that both valves D&E are open and I think (I'm not very good in physics) to create optimum water flow one of them should be closed and the other open.

Valve E is a bypass valve. Shut this completely then open one turn. The purpose of this valve is to provide an additional path for the water when the TRVs close down, Ideally it should be an automatic bypass valve (ABV) which only opens when necessary.

Valve D controls the flow through the HW cylinder. You could try closing it down, as if it was a lockshield valve, so the HW cylinder does not get more than its fair share of the circulating water.

but even if the wiring is wrong and I'm gonna make it right (room tstat shuts boiler when no more heat is needed)

Just to clarify. The CH thermostat turns the boiler off when the room reaches temperature? If so, that's good.

I still wont be able to control HW separately and while CH&HW switch is on and temperature of the water in boiler drops it's still gonna fire it up to heat already hot water in tank, is that correct?

You certainly won't be able to control the HW separately as there is no motorized valve in the HW circuit and Cylinder stat.

With your current arrangement, if the room is up to temp then the room thermostat should: close the MV; stop the pump (the pump may continue running for a few minutes if the boiler requires this); turn off the boiler. It should not continue firing to heat up the HW.
 
My F&E tank:
femb9.jpg

seems to have separate expansion pipe

Valve E is a bypass valve. Shut this completely then open one turn.
...
Valve D controls the flow through the HW cylinder. You could try closing it down, as if it was a lockshield valve, so the HW cylinder does not get more than its fair share of the circulating water.
thanks I'll try that.

With your current arrangement, if the room is up to temp then the room thermostat should: close the MV; stop the pump (the pump may continue running for a few minutes if the boiler requires this); turn off the boiler. It should not continue firing to heat up the HW.
I'm not sure have I got the message right...
If the programmer is in CH&HW position and room tstat calls for heat then boiler fires up and HW is heated because there is no MW to cut it off. When room tstat reaches desired temperature it should stop boiler and pump until room temp drops and tstat starts calling for heat again in the meantime boiler should keep quiet.

Here is how it's working in my case:
Programmer in CH&HW position, room stat turned down to min. MW is closed but pump is working and boiler fires up anyway. Should I assume that installation is not wired properly?

I've looked on wiring diagrams posted by you but I couldn't find anything that looks like my installation they all are using cylinder tstat and I think that C Plan is the closest.


OFF TOPIC
I'm kinda angry because before we bought this house I was bit concern with CH installation especially boiler so I've paid "reputable" company to do the check-up and find out about it's condition they have said that everything is OK and it just needs to be power flushed. They took 60 pounds and when we moved in after 2 weeks I found two leaking radiator valves and now I've got all this problems with CH.
I don't understand it because if they have said that installation needs updating then I would have good reason to ask for house price reduction and I could use saved money to install new system and probably I would ask them to do it so they would earn more money.

Fortunately there are people like D_Hailsham who are willing to share their wisdom and experience to help other.
Thanks again mate.
 
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My F&E tank ...(image omitted) ... seems to have separate expansion pipe
The pipe you marked as expansion is actually the vent pipe. Where is the other end? I can't see anything in the other pics
Valve E is a bypass valve. Shut this completely then open one turn.
Valve D controls the flow through the HW cylinder. You could try closing it down, as if it was a lockshield valve, so the HW cylinder does not get more than its fair share of the circulating water.
thanks I'll try that.
I don't expect you have the installation manual for the boiler (it's very old in any case) but, if by chance you do, there should be instructions for setting the bypass (Valve E). The important thing is that the boiler will require a minimum flow rate and this is determined by how open Valve E is. One turn from fully closed is normally about right.
I'm not sure have I got the message right...
If the programmer is in CH&HW position and room tstat calls for heat then boiler fires up and HW is heated because there is no MW to cut it off. When room tstat reaches desired temperature it should stop boiler and pump until room temp drops and tstat starts calling for heat again in the meantime boiler should keep quiet.
Correct. That is what your system should do
Here is how it's working in my case:
Programmer in CH&HW position, room stat turned down to min. MW is closed but pump is working and boiler fires up anyway. Should I assume that installation is not wired properly?
This means that the HW temperature is controlled by the boiler temp, which is OK in the summer but not very economical in the winter when the boiler temp will need to be higher. I think the previous owners who had the system installed did not want to go to the expense of installing a second MV so they put in valve D instead, which could be partially closed in the winter to prevent the HW getting to hot.

The wiring is not wrong as it is the only way of wiring the system so you can have HW without CH.
I've looked on wiring diagrams posted by you but I couldn't find anything that looks like my installation they all are using cylinder tstat and I think that C Plan is the closest.
C plan is for systems which have the pump only in the CH circuit and not the HW, which relies on gravity (hot water rises, cold falls) for circulation.

What you have is an S plan without the second MV and HW cylinder thermostat. This will explain it all:

Honeywell S-Plan

Alternative solution
Just checked the Danfoss web-site for details about your time switch. They show a wiring for your system which just uses a cylinder thermostat and not a second MV. The only disadvantage is that you cannot have CH only switched on. But it will turn off the boiler when the HW cylinder is up to temp. This is the cheapest solution as it only required a cylinder stat, which cost about £15, and there is no plumbing involved.

Now this system is fine in the summer as the Cylinder stat will turn the boiler off when the HW reaches temp, say 60°C but it will only partly work in the winter as there is no way of preventing circulation through the HW cylinder while the CH is running. For this, you must have a second valve.

Details are here:
Danfoss 102 Instructions

It's wiring diagram 2 which you need.

I am sure that, with all the expense of a young baby, you will be trying to keep your expenditure to a minimum but, while you are embarking on this update, have you thought about updating your room thermostat. If it is like the rest of the system it is probably an old mechanical type.

There are two routes. The cheapest is to replace it with a digital ones such as the Honeywell DT200 are more accurate and will keep the room at a more constant temperature this will cost about £20.

The alternative is to replace it with a programmable thermostat (combined timer and thermostat) such as the Honeywell CM900 range. This allows you to set different temperatures at different times of the day and even for different days if required. They range in price from £45 (wired) to £90 (wireless)


OFF TOPIC
I'm kinda angry because before we bought this house I was bit concern with CH installation especially boiler so I've paid "reputable" company to do the check-up and find out about it's condition they have said that everything is OK and it just needs to be power flushed. They took 60 pounds and when we moved in after 2 weeks I found two leaking radiator valves and now I've got all this problems with CH.
I don't understand it because if they have said that installation needs updating then I would have good reason to ask for house price reduction and I could use saved money to install new system and probably I would ask them to do it so they would earn more money.

At least you did the right thing by getting a survey done; not many do that. It's unfortunate that you chose the wrong firm. Were they recommended by the seller's estate agent by any chance, or was it one you already knew?

Presumably they commented on the age of the boiler and the lack of proper controls and that it did not meet current building regulations.

So how did they know it needed to be powerflushed? You can't tell that just by looking at the system.

You will, eventually, have to replace the boiler but you will be pleased to learn that, if you do decide to add the second MV and cylinder stat etc, the expense of doing so will not be wasted.
 
it took me some time to work it out but here is how it looks...
updateyq3.jpg


Following your advice I went to B&Q today and bought THIS and THIS
the main reason why bought wireless thermostat is that the current one is in vestibule and there is no rads so it's very inaccurate.
I will fit it tomorrow and see how it works.

D_Hailsham said:
Were they recommended by the seller's estate agent by any chance, or was it one you already knew?
We moved to Chester about 6mths ago when I was looking for a plumber I've asked pepole at work but all of the recommended people were unavailable in time I needed survey to be done so I ended looking for a plumber in local newspaper and then I've checked reviews on internet it looked fine so I rang them.

D_Hailsham said:
Presumably they commented on the age of the boiler and the lack of proper controls and that it did not meet current building regulations.
They have said that "boiler flue sub standard as fitted too close to window. recommended power flush to CH system" they have also recommended service for the boiler but nothing about things you have mentioned

D_Hailsham said:
So how did they know it needed to be powerflushed? You can't tell that just by looking at the system.
well maybe they could... :D joke

D_Hailsham said:
You will, eventually, have to replace the boiler but you will be pleased to learn that, if you do decide to add the second MV and cylinder stat etc, the expense of doing so will not be wasted.
I will fit second MV but it has to wait until spring/summer because I don't want to be left without HW/CH in the middle of winter if something goes wrong even for couple of days.
In regards to new boiler I think that all of those new fittings will be useful only if I'm gonna stay with open vented system I haven't decided yet but I think combi will be more efficient/cheaper to run in in our case but I also have to look at the installation costs which in case of combi will be probably more expensive.

Last thing that's bugging me is the pump currently it is in 2nd "gear" and I don't know is it OK for my system (4rads), here is the table from the pump:
*____A______W_____RPM
3____0.42___105____2250
2____0.27____65____1700
1____0.17____40____1150


thanks again
 
Apologies for not replying sooner.

Last thing that's bugging me is the pump currently it is in 2nd "gear" and I don't know is it OK for my system (4rads).

Second gear should be fine for a system with only four rads. The important thing is that all rads get equally hot (when the TRVs are fully open) and that the temperature drop between input and output pipe of each rad is the same. This is called balancing.

If the rad furthest from the pump will not get warm, put the pump in top gear (3); but if it is too hot, turn the pump down to bottom gear (1).
 
What an informative and helpful contribution from D Hailsham. I wonder if I could ask whether you need a vent pipe over the expansion tank if you have a 28mm combined feed and expansion pipe going into the bottom of the tank. I can never understand how it vents. Also whether you need an auto by-pass valve if the towel rail is always on when the boiler is firing to satisfy any of the 3 zones; we just have a manual valve which we have never touched and have no idea if it is adjusted properly. Do you have any answers to my problems mentioned under the subject heading Motorised Valve Stuck? No way I can do DIY but we seem to have several problems even after paying a lot to professionals and I want to make sure the problems get sorted properly.
 
I wonder if I could ask whether you need a vent pipe over the expansion tank if you have a 28mm combined feed and expansion pipe going into the bottom of the tank. I can never understand how it vents.

You really should not hijack another conversation -see the Rules.

But here's the answer ;)

The feed and expansion pipe does what it says: it supplies cold water to the system and, when the water expands because it has been heated up, takes the overflow. This is why you must never have the water level too high in the F & E tank.

The open vent pipe is actually a safety device to provide an escape path if the pressure in the system gets too high - called pumping over.

Also whether you need an auto by-pass valve if the towel rail is always on when the boiler is firing to satisfy any of the 3 zones; we just have a manual valve which we have never touched and have no idea if it is adjusted properly.

An ABV is really only needed if (a) the boiler mfr specifies one or (b) you have a lot of TRVs.

Do you have any answers to my problems mentioned under the subject heading Motorised Valve Stuck? No way I can do DIY but we seem to have several problems even after paying a lot to professionals and I want to make sure the problems get sorted properly.

I'll look up your other post and see if I can answer it :)
 
Thanks AGAIN!

After installing new tstats my CH is finally working properly thanks to you D_Hailsham!

I had some problems with getting system to work properly but my electrician helped me out, turned out that switch in MV wasn't connected to the system and when cylinder tstat reached right temp. CH was stopping working but now everything is fine.

When I was installing cylinder tstat I did it as the manual said and I've put it about 1/3rd from the base of cylinder, I think that it should be higher because temps it reads are too low :/

If someone is looking for wireless room stat I think that the one I bought is a good choice, you can program it and use two different temperatures for every day and every hour of the week! Really easy to use, installation took me about 5 minutes! and I didn't had to drill new holes. And what's most imported it's under 60 quid!

My CH is now on 24/7 (18*C during night and 21*C during day) new room stat and TRVs are keeping house at constant temperature and finally TICKING stopped :)

Once again BIG thank you for all your help and time.
 

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