Vive La France!

[JonathanM]

You surely don't mean you should be the only allowed to discuss what you want?

I don't think that's correct, but perhaps others just want to discuss something else.

The quality of that particular discussion has been very low for most of those 60 pages. After the first few pages, it has become extraordinarily repetitive and really just amounts to gain saying.

I think most other posters would be grateful if both sides could just make nice and stop it.

 

[motorbiking]

Yes they might. But laws mean things, and there is nothing wrong with taking an ordinary meaning from them. In this case doctors (RMP's) form their opinion on whether the criteria contained in the law are met. If the are, then happy days, the abortion proceeds as it does in the vast majority of cases.

If the criteria are not met then it cannot proceed. legally. That, in ordinary language means approval or not. To ague that the word approval isn't in the act is just silliness.

Except you are missing the entire reason for the role of the doctors. There are many scenarios where people are required to give an opinion and even certify that opinion. The entire point is to give an opinion, not approve the course of action. lawyers give opinion all the time, they have no role to approve a course of action. Sometimes the opinion is signed off as a certified opinion. Again it is not an approval of a course of action.

 

[motorbiking]

If that’s true, you need to provide evidence

Otherwise you are just dismissing something because it doesn’t support your argument

Evidence has been provided, the acts linked to the text quoted, jeez what more is needed? He unlike you apparently actually read them.

 

[motorbiking]

Only because the "legal expert" keeps trying to deny facts. A fact he has admitted is correct.

what facts?

Interestingly in most court rooms they have (at least) 2 legal professionals, arguing against each other, both using the laws.

Very rarely is it as cut and dried as you appear to think it is.

You wont find them relying on a dictionary either..

 

[denso13]

The entire point is to give an opinion, not approve the course of action

When the woman wants to proceed with an abortion there are two possible outcomes available. That RMP's certify it or not, she can either proceed legally or not. Approval is a perfectly acceptable meaning of the process, "approval" doesn't give the process any more meaning than it already had.

If you were to say, "the word approval gives the law new meaning", that would be one thing. But it doesn't.

 

[Notch7]

TBH, I think this whole debate about the meaning of the word "approve" has become tiresome and silly. It's been going on for 60 pages now. It means that posters who have wanted to discuss other elements of this topic have been drowned out.

It might be a good time for both sides to agree to disagree. Whoever goes first wins the moral high ground!

But again, I would say, if I want to help people to obtain a better understanding of the structure of the law in the UK, particularly around the actual offences, then I will. My small number of posts are unrelated to the discussion about the meaning of the word "approve".

They are intrinsically related though.

The abortion process is:

1 Woman goes to see Dr
2 Drs considers if abortion in their opinion complies medically and legally
3 Drs sign form for abortion to proceed (approval)
4 form gets passed into system and abortion is booked
5 Dr does abortion


You are arguing the theoretical situation where an abortion takes place where numbers 3 and 4 don’t happen.

That’s a procedural issue, the system is designed so that the abortion doesn’t happen if 2 Drs don’t sign the form.

I don’t see how the legality of something that happened as a result of an administrative error has any bearing on the abortion law as it stands

 

[motorbiking]

y'all constantly swerve the moral argument of whether it's right to approve abortion, never mind how legal it is.
Stuff your two doctors in a pipe n smoke 'em.

I think it should be the right of a woman to decide up to a certain point. It is very much a sliding scale. Assuming everything is "normal"
At 10 weeks or less there really should be no barriers - 90%ish meet that criteria which shows the service is working very well
at 10-15 weeks you've had the first scan, so I would want the person to have a little more consultation.
at 15-20 weeks, I'd want someone to understand why they had changed their mind etc.
Above 20 weeks we are clearly in to the realms of killing something.

While not explicitly illegal in the UK, I'd like to see sex/gender based abortions outlawed. I'd also like doctors to be given stronger guidelines around minor disabilities for late term abortions. Both effectively have loopholes due to the fact they are not required to give an approval, merely an opinion formed in good faith.

In Law (and daily life), opinions are often wrong and wildly wrong. As it stands as long as it was formed in good faith, there is no offence.

 

[Notch7]

Better birth control - better sex education - abstinence

those aren’t points related to the morality of abortion

And whilst they are points for discussion in regards to reducing the need for abortion, I think it’s fair to say horny teenagers have been horny since Adam and Eve and all the sex education in the world isn’t gonna change a thing.

 

[motorbiking]

They are intrinsically related though.

The abortion process is:

1 Woman goes to see Dr
2 Drs considers if abortion in their opinion complies medically and legally and second RMP also agrees.
3 Drs sign certificate of opinion form for abortion to proceed (approval) as required by separate legislation
4 form gets passed into system and abortion is booked
5 Dr does abortion


You are arguing the theoretical situation where an abortion takes place where numbers 3 and 4 don’t happen.

That’s a procedural issue, the system is designed so that the abortion doesn’t happen if 2 Drs don’t sign the form.

I don’t see how the legality of something that happened as a result of an administrative error has any bearing on the abortion law as it stands

corrected for you

 

[Notch7]

Except you are missing the entire reason for the role of the doctors. There are many scenarios where people are required to give an opinion and even certify that opinion. The entire point is to give an opinion, not approve the course of action. lawyers give opinion all the time, they have no role to approve a course of action. Sometimes the opinion is signed off as a certified opinion. Again it is not an approval of a course of action.

Which part of this do you not agree with:


The abortion process is:

1 Woman goes to see Dr
2 Drs considers if abortion in their opinion complies medically and legally
3 Drs sign form for abortion to proceed (approval)
4 form gets passed into system and abortion is booked
5 Dr does abortion

 

[denso13]

corrected for you

You don't think there are any medical considerations at all?

 

[blup]

y'all constantly swerve the moral argument of whether it's right to approve abortion, never mind how legal it is.
Stuff your two doctors in a pipe n smoke 'em.

Dont forget abortion is presumptively a crime in this country unless two doctors certify tne medical exemptions. That is quite different from making it a constitutional right which suggests a woman can demand one as of right at any time. If it was that simple parliament would surely by now have changed the law.

 

[blup]

The quality of that particular discussion has been very low for most of those 60 pages. After the first few pages, it has become extraordinarily repetitive and really just amounts to gain saying.

I think most other posters would be grateful if both sides could just make nice and stop it.

Theres been an element of repetition but not low quality, most other posters have plenty of other threads to keep them busy

 

[Notch7]

corrected for you

Oh dear, you’ve still not read and absorbed form HSA1

A B E are medical

You are welcome to try and claim “risk to life” is a legal judgement

considering their opinion is the judgement
Signing is the act of approval

If Drs don’t sign then the abortion doesn’t happen
Why? A = because it’s not been approved.

Can an abortion happen legally without form HSA1 (excluding emergency) A = no

No approval no abortion.



Try reading the form more carefully, maybe get your legal books out again, you seem awfully rusty

https://www.bpas.org/media/zm1dqpgb/hsa1-form.pdf

 

[JonathanM]

You are arguing the theoretical situation where an abortion takes place where numbers 3 and 4 don’t happen.

I have not been involved in any argument!

My recent posts have been purely to help explain the legal basis for the various criminal offences and when they apply. In order to help people understand the law, you sometimes have to look at situations which are unusual or mainly hypothetical. I would guess that the number of cases where an abortion has gone ahead without an HSA1 are very few.

I have not been, and do not want to be, involved in an argument about the meaning of the word "approve".