Welding socket needed for 17th edition board?

[westie101]

If I read correctly the National Terms do not appear to include specific guidance for welders. The word "welder" doesn't appear

Which is why I commented on it being vague.
It refers to any change, which by implication could include any thing and exclude nothing.

The leflet was from ENWL and goes back to the pre-privatised NORWEB days, as for the others I have no idea, you would be best advised to check their websites

 

[aesmith]

Cheers, I'm having a look just now. By the way it refers to "any significant change" rather than just "any change". Even vaguer. Given that these obligations apply to ordinary householders, and are not aimed at electricians, I would have expected them to be be clearer if for example they consider plugging a welder into a pre-existing 13A socket as a significant change in the electrical equipment in a way that say buying a new kettle does not.

I think the more relevant part of those guidelines would probably be the last bit of the section you highlighted .. "... if you propose to do anything else that could affect our network .." which really is a catch-all, but places the onus on the householder to guess what might or might not affect the network.

 

[bernardgreen]

The application form from UK Power includes this

Load details
Please provide details of any air conditioning, heat pumps, water heaters, lifts, motors, refrigeration, welders, cranes, swimming pools, power
showers, under floor heating or any other pieces of equipment that are running high loads.

 

[skotl]

But do these forms, conditions, etc, not apply only when you are requesting a new or uprated circuit?

Real life example (from my real life!) - I move into a 70s house, two years ago, and sign up with NPower for my electricity. I haven't gone and checked, but would whatever "sign here, here and here, and enter your direct debit details" contract I signed with the supplier have included these DNO conditions? I don't recall any queries about load, swimming pools or welders...

 

[bernardgreen]

When you buy a house you also inherit any conditions, agreement and covenants that have accumulated on the property from the day it was built. Those will include the terms and conditions applicable to the electrical supply to the property.

 

[JohnW2]

When you buy a house you also inherit any conditions, agreement and covenants that have accumulated on the property from the day it was built. Those will include the terms and conditions applicable to the electrical supply to the property.

Whilst that applies to lots of things (like telegraph poles in one's garden), I somehow doubt that it applies to contracts for the supply of electricity - let's face it, some people 'sign up' with a new electricity supplier every five minutes these days, and I doubt that the contracts include anything 'inherited' from any of the suppliers competitors!

However, I think there may be some misunderstandings about what happens in practice. I'm sure westie will correct me if I'm wrong, but I very much doubt that DNOs 'seek out', and 'do something about' people who are using welders (or whatever) without having obtained permission, if they are not causing any problems. It's when use of such loads causes problems for other consumers that they will get interested, and I'm sure there are 'catch all' conditions in the contract to cover that!

Kind Regards, John

 

[bernardgreen]

My understanding is that supply and delivery are under different contracts. The supply contract changes when the customer changes supplier but the delivery contract, created when the cable delivering current to the cut out is installed, remains until that cable is removed or de-commissioned.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

...any other pieces of equipment that are running high loads.

All-electric range cookers, electrode boilers, aluminium smelters, particle accelerators....

 

[westie101]

I'm sure westie will correct me if I'm wrong, but I very much doubt that DNOs 'seek out', and 'do something about' people who are using welders (or whatever) without having obtained permission, if they are not causing any problems. It's when use of such loads causes problems for other consumers that they will get interested, and I'm sure there are 'catch all' conditions in the contract to cover that!

That is correct

As regards the contract see my earlier post with the conditions from the National Term

If you sign with a supplier you are deemed to have agreed to the DNO contact

If you take a supply again you are deemed to have agreed to tghe contact

Any disputes are against The Electricity Act

 

[aesmith]

That raises some interesting questions. Assuming it's always been the case that the DNO (or it's predecessor pre-privatisation) asked for that sort of inventory of electrical requirements at the time of connection. Then the house changes hands multiple times without those requirements being questioned, or the householder being asked to confirm. Our house has certainly been connected to the supply since the early '60s, possibly a lot longer since the house is 19th century. So is our current supply based on the presumption that no changes have been made in the last 50 years? How would the current owner find out what requirements were originally specified when the supply was first put in?

By the way, in that connection application, why would they want to know about "power showers" specifically? Ours only draws 3A. And more relevantly, does the form contain an obligation to inform the DNO if the requirements change, or is that down to the "significant change" catch all in the Act?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

The Act, the contract terms etc - they are all there so that if you start to do things which b****r up other people's supply you can be stopped without the need for injunctions.

That you may not have known about any of them will not lessen their effectiveness.

 

[aesmith]

We're on a dedicated transformer served by over overhead 11kV in case that's relevant.

It makes a huge difference as the chances of affecting another customer are very low, it also increases the permissible flicker that you might see.

Of course at that don't ring up saying your lights dip everytime you use your welder.

But of course if it is a single transformer you might risk overloading it for short periods as single transformers can be found in sizes from 5kVA upwards!

15kVA transformer and 16mm sq service cable in our case, so I guess that supply is not as tiny as some, but maybe not up to current spec. Transformer is dated 1982 on the plate.

 

[westie101]

In terms of the original electricity boards the T&Cs were a lot clearer and every time a property changed hands the new customer would have been given a copy of them (most just signed without reading them) simply and easy

Since privatisation, which was meant to make things easier for the customer, obviously that has all changed.

For the better for all involved I'll leave for you to decide!

 

[westie101]

This is part of the T&Cs from the EoN supplier site

Your Energy supply and meter

10.1 Standards of service

Your Energy is delivered to your meter by your local Network Operator. Details of your local Network Operator are provided on your bill or statement.

We and your Network Operator aim to give you a high standard of service at all times but, despite all reasonable efforts, your Energy supply may be interrupted or of a lower quality due to circumstances outside our or their reasonable control. We’ll send you information about the level of service you should expect and any compensation you may be eligible for if we don’t meet those standards once a year, or you can go to eonenergy.com/guaranteedstandards or call us on 0345 059 9905 and we’ll send you a copy.

10.2 Electricity National terms of connection

We are acting on behalf of your electricity Network Operator to make an agreement with you. The agreement is that you and your electricity Network Operator both accept the National Terms of Connection (NTC) and agree to keep to its conditions. This will happen from the time that you enter into this Contract and it affects your legal rights. The NTC is a legal agreement. It sets out rights and duties in relation to the connection at which your Network Operator delivers electricity to, or accepts electricity from, your Property.

If you want a copy of the NTC or have any questions about it, please write to: Energy Networks Association, 6th Floor, Dean Bradley House, 52 Horseferry Road, London, SW1P 2AF: phone 0207 706 5100 or visit the website at connectionterms.co.uk.

10.3 Emergencies

You need to tell us if you have a medical condition or disability. We will let your Network Operator know so that if there is an emergency they will, where possible, ensure you are not without essential heating and lighting.

In a gas emergency, we or your Network Operator may ask you to turn down gas equipment or stop using gas. You need to follow any instructions you receive at the time.

10.4 Meter faults and problems

If you think your meter is faulty you can ask us to test it. If it is not faulty you will be charged for the test. If we think your meter is faulty we will arrange to have it tested and we will pay for the test.

If your meter is found to be faulty, we will estimate how much Energy you have used until the fault is fixed.(see section 2.6).

10.5 Inspecting your meter

Whatever type of meter you have, we need to inspect it at least every two years, which will include taking a meter reading. We may charge you our costs if you don’t allow us to have reasonable access to your meter, including any costs relating to getting a warrant.

10.6 Access to your meter

You have to allow your Network Operator, us or anyone we authorise to access your meter. If it isn’t an emergency, this will be at reasonable times. We will take reasonable care while we are in your Property.

A fairly clear reference to the National terms that is no doubt repeated on other suppliers T&Cs.

Of course every customer reads them before signing, don't they?

 

[skotl]

And therein lies the difficulty. I find it hard to imagine that an individual can be held to have agreed to a set of conditions and requirements that they have not explicitly been given a copy of and signed. That seems pretty shaky legal ground to me.

Now, having said that, I do understand that the DNOs are under no obligation to provide their service to any specific customers so I am equally sure that I could be luxuriating in a state of smug I-told-you-so-ness while I light the candles as the DNO/supplier cuts me off...