Welding socket needed for 17th edition board?

[ban-all-sheds]

And therein lies the difficulty. I find it hard to imagine that an individual can be held to have agreed to a set of conditions and requirements that they have not explicitly been given a copy of and signed. That seems pretty shaky legal ground to me.

You might think that.

But they have explicitly been given a set of conditions which do explicitly tell them that by signing they are agreeing to accept the National Terms of Connection, and how to obtain a copy of those.

We do have legislation which outlaws unfair terms and conditions in contracts, but (remembering that IANAL) I don't think they provide any exemption for people who just don't bother to read what they are signing, or indeed are too thick to understand what they are signing, as long as they are legally competent to sign and what they are signing up to is reasonable.

We all do it, to a greater or lesser extent. How many items of free s/w have you installed and ticked the box to say that you accept the Ts'n'Cs of the EULA without reading them? Most of them seek to limit the s/w suppliers liabilities, and to prevent you from doing things with the s/w, such as commercial use, incorporating it in another product, doing naughty things with it etc, but do you really know that there isn't a clause buried in it which says that after a year and a day the company which owns the software can come and take all of your possessions, make free with your wife and set fire to your garden?

 

[skotl]

I think we're in danger of agreeing.

I2ANAL, and I suspect it could be viewed as an unfair contract but, with very few exceptions, suppliers can choose who they want as a customer.
So it's all moot - if a tenuous join-the-dots series of contracts (some signed by the consumer and some not) states the requirements of the supplier, and a customer is unwilling to abide by the requirements, then the supplier is perfectly entitled to cease that supply.

Short and curlies, and all that.

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Actually - just re-read your response and I think we disagree on the value of the word "explicitly" in the following context;

But they have explicitly been given a set of conditions which do explicitly tell them that by signing they are agreeing to accept the National Terms of Connection, and how to obtain a copy of those

Yes - that is explicit in what the consumer signed. But the DNO T&Cs are implicit. A specific difficulty with this implied contract is that I could sign the electricity supply contract on 1st Jan 2013, and even read and implicitly accept the DNO conditions at that time. But, the DNO could change these terms tomorrow and I am expected to have implicitly accepted the amended terms, too.

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Finally, all of this aggro could be avoided if the electricity suppliers stapled a copy of the current DNO T&Cs to the agreement that we sign up to and the DNO was obligated to send copies of any amended T&Cs to all householders when they change.

 

[westie101]

Whilst there is the issue of unfair terms and not seeing the written words in some circumstances, as is stated in the preamble to the terms these issues are covered by The Elecricity Act so form part of the law of the land that it works like that.
I suspect it would be difficult to circumvent that point except in the highest courts.

 

[aesmith]

Another thing that's interesting is the 5kVA upper limit for single phase, applicable to Westie's DNO even if not to others. That more or less means that anything bigger than 150A would be ruled out, including just about any sort of professional or semi-professional rig. I just had a quick look at one supplier and their MIGs include models rated from 160A to 400A on single phase, and only their top model is even available as three phase.

 

[westie101]

That more or less means that anything bigger than 150A would be ruled out, including just about any sort of professional or semi-professional rig

The 5kVA limit only applies to what is the maximum that can be connected across live and neutral of a single phase supply.
Above that would need to be connected phase to phase of a 3 phase supply which I expect the welders can be modified to cope with.

Nothing stops anyone applying for a 3 phase service to any property

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Nothing stops anyone applying for a 3 phase service to any property

Indeed.

And justice is open to all, like the Ritz Hotel.

 

[jason61c]

So how would a rotary phase converter fit into all this 'headache rule making'? In my last place I ran a 3hp milling machine, 1.5hp late and a 3phase welder off a 5hp rotary phase converter, on a 13amp socket, on a 32amp ring.

 

[JohnW2]

So how would a rotary phase converter fit into all this 'headache rule making'? In my last place I ran a 3hp milling machine, 1.5hp late and a 3phase welder off a 5hp rotary phase converter, on a 13amp socket, on a 32amp ring.

Converting the supply to 3-phase with a rotary converter doesn't alter the amount of power drawn from the DNO's single phase supply - so I assume that the standard 'rules' for a single-phase DNO supply would still apply.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

So how would a rotary phase converter fit into all this 'headache rule making'? In my last place I ran a 3hp milling machine, 1.5hp late and a 3phase welder off a 5hp rotary phase converter, on a 13amp socket, on a 32amp ring.

Not all at once, I hope, 5hp being more than 13A @230V

 

[jason61c]

So how would a rotary phase converter fit into all this 'headache rule making'? In my last place I ran a 3hp milling machine, 1.5hp late and a 3phase welder off a 5hp rotary phase converter, on a 13amp socket, on a 32amp ring.

Not all at once, I hope, 5hp being more than 13A @230V

By nature of the items I've never had all running at once. I have had the milling machine and lathe on though at the same time.

 

[aesmith]

That more or less means that anything bigger than 150A would be ruled out, including just about any sort of professional or semi-professional rig

The 5kVA limit only applies to what is the maximum that can be connected across live and neutral of a single phase supply.
Above that would need to be connected phase to phase of a 3 phase supply which I expect the welders can be modified to cope with.

I was struck by what appears to be companies setting out deliberately making machines that would not be allowed to be connected (by some DNOs anyway, I don't know if any others have that 5kVA limit). Your suggestion that they could be connected phase to phase might explain that. Is that still 240V?

Thinking about it, our own supply is actually between two phases of a three phase supply, since our overhead wires are an extension of two from a three phase line a few fields away.

 

[JohnW2]

I was struck by what appears to be companies setting out deliberately making machines that would not be allowed to be connected (by some DNOs anyway, I don't know if any others have that 5kVA limit). Your suggestion that they could be connected phase to phase might explain that. Is that still 240V?

No. The voltage between any two phases of a 3-phase supply is about 400V (~400V corrresponding to a 230V single-phase supply, ~415V corresponding to a 240V single-phase supply)

Thinking about it, our own supply is actually between two phases of a three phase supply, since our overhead wires are an extension of two from a three phase line a few fields away.

No. As above, the voltage between any two phases of a 3-phase supply is ~400V. Your 2-wire '230V' supply consists of one of those phases plus neutral.

Kind Regards, John

 

[bernardgreen]

Your 2-wire '230V' supply consists of one of those phases plus neutral

More likely the two phases feed a 415 v primary of a transformer and the 230 v secondary has one end grounded to form the Neutral for the single phase 230 v supply at the other end of the secondary

 

[westie101]

More likely the two phases feed a 415 v primary of a transformer and the 230 v secondary has one end grounded to form the Neutral for the single phase 230 v supply at the other end of the secondary

There is no where that uses a supply arrangement like that, sounds nice but nah

If you read back through the posts you will see that aesmith is fed from his own transformer, so the two wires coming across the field will be two phases of a 3 phase HV line (either 6.6 or 11kV) between them and the 15kVA transformer (possibly actually 16kVA being the standard size) he talks about will transform that to 250V as it will be a standard ESI version.

 

[JohnW2]

Your 2-wire '230V' supply consists of one of those phases plus neutral

More likely the two phases feed a 415 v primary of a transformer and the 230 v secondary has one end grounded to form the Neutral for the single phase 230 v supply at the other end of the secondary

Interesting thought - I've never heard of that one (moderate-distance transmission to a transformer at 400V/415V would seem inefficient). Whatever, the suggestion that what is fed to his house is two phases of a 3-phase supply is clearly totally off-the -mark!

Edit: somehow missed westie's post, but I suppose it explains why I had never heard of such an arrangement!
Kind Regards, John