Who can issue a Periodic Inspection Report

[JohnW2]

My son and I had to complete a job when the builder disappeared. We did it all above board and informed the LABC what we were doing. They wanted an installation certificate and my son said "I will make that out I have my C&G 2391" at which the inspector refused to accept that. He then said "My dad has a degree in Electrical Engineering" at which they said I could do the inspection and testing.
As it happens I also have a C&G 2391 but they did not know that. And I had no insurance but my son did. Since it was my parents house there was not really an issue as far as insurance went we were working like any other DIY would work.
However it seems very strange as when doing my degree we never touched anything to do with BS7671 and the qualification did not really mean I knew what I was doing as far as inspection and testing goes.

That doesn't really surprise me, but it does illustrate how crazy this bureaucracy is.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[sparkticus]

I would actually have thought that, in terms of recourse under the law, it would actually be more likely to be successful if the defendant was not registered, since it would be easier to build a case against him/her if their competance could be questioned.

From a legal point of view you may be right, I don't know. But most of the insurance companies (for industrial) want to see that an inspector is registered & qualified with professional indemnity insurance. They are not so interested in blaming/prosecuting someone as ensuring that there is a "liability claim pathway" at least that is my experience and I do a lot of industrial inspection.

I'm not so sure that whether or not a person is registered will necessarily correlate all that well with how up-to-date they are with regs and practices. I'm certainly sure that there will be some non-registered people who are up-to-date and some registered ones who aren't!

That I believe is generally true but again I do think this may depend upon the business sector. Domestic is a free for all it seems to me. Commercial, you need to know what you are looking at. In commercial inspection I find that people know their stuff for the most part. Industrial is very broad, you see all sorts of things and need to specialise somewhat. Most industrial inspectors know their job well (just in my experience)

 

[ban-all-sheds]

you don't need to consider yourself competent or indeed be competent. Anyone can buy certificates from NICEIC and they don't need any qualifications. In fact the milkman can issue a Periodic Inspection Report for you!

I think he's probably decided by now what he is or is not going to do....

 

[sparkticus]

you don't need to consider yourself competent or indeed be competent. Anyone can buy certificates from NICEIC and they don't need any qualifications. In fact the milkman can issue a Periodic Inspection Report for you!

I think he's probably decided by now what he is or is not going to do....

Oh yes, just looked at the original post

But the lack of responsibility over PIRs is something that really pushes my buttons. The fact that anyone can do them does not mean they should.
I go out of my way to do them in a professional manner with all limitations agreed with client and signatures. I grate my teeth when I see "people" doing it with virtually no experience, no proper equipment and meaningless scrawl on the PIR.

OK, I feel better now

 

[JohnW2]

you don't need to consider yourself competent or indeed be competent. Anyone can buy certificates from NICEIC and they don't need any qualifications. In fact the milkman can issue a Periodic Inspection Report for you!

I think he's probably decided by now what he is or is not going to do....

Whoops, I hadn't noticed either - but I don't really think that matters; the discussion is as relevant now as it was 'back then'.

'Back then' STI said that he was only paying a £2 per month addon-on premium for £2m or £5m (he couldn't rember which) PI cover, which sounds unbelievably cheap. I'd be interested to know the real ballpark of PI premiums now. Anyone?

Kind Regards, John.

 

[sparkticus]

you don't need to consider yourself competent or indeed be competent. Anyone can buy certificates from NICEIC and they don't need any qualifications. In fact the milkman can issue a Periodic Inspection Report for you!

I think he's probably decided by now what he is or is not going to do....

Whoops, I hadn't noticed either - but I don't really think that matters; the discussion is as relevant now as it was 'back then'.

'Back then' STI said that he was only paying a £2 per month addon-on premium for £2m or £5m (he couldn't rember which) PI cover, which sounds unbelievably cheap. I'd be interested to know the real ballpark of PI premiums now. Anyone?


Kind Regards, John.

Public Liability £300/year - PI £700/year

Both can be lowered or raised depending upon how you answer certain questions. Of course you need something that actually reflects your business liabilities.

 

[JohnW2]

Public Liability £300/year - PI £700/year.

Thanks. That sounds far more credible.

Kind Regards, John.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

And there will be people who try to make out that those should be included in the costs of Competent Person scheme registration so that they can whinge about how much Part P has cost them...

 

[JohnW2]

And there will be people who try to make out that those should be included in the costs of Competent Person scheme registration so that they can whinge about how much Part P has cost them...

No doubt - but that would obvioulsy be daft, since one hopes that electricians would have PI insurance whether Part P existed or not.

The claim rate (and/or average claim size) under PI must be pretty low. A £700 p.a. premium is very modest in comparison with premiums for many 'safety critical' or 'litigation rich' professions.

Kind Regards, John

 

[flameport]

The claim rate (and/or average claim size) under PI must be pretty low.

Probably zero.

In reality, how often are PIRs done?

Domestic = never, since virtually all homeowners neither know or care about them, or any other aspect of their electrical system other than 'it works'.

Commercial/industrial = only when insurers or some other authority requests one, and then it is done by whoever quotes the lowest price, and those receiving the document never look at it, and even if the insurer receives a copy, they probably don't look at it either, and even if they do, it is highly unlikely they understand anything written on it other than the word 'satisfactory'.

Even if some fire or whatever occurs, and a relevant report was done, and a copy of it still exists, the person who produced the report will almost never be prosecuted, since the negligent party will inevitably be some other unknown individual who made alterations to the electrical system afterwards. Assuming of course that the actual cause of the fire or whatever can be identified, which in most cases it cannot. And even if it was, it could well be some hidden damaged part under a floor / wall / partition which would have been excluded on the original PIR anyway.

 

[sparkticus]

Domestic = never, since virtually all homeowners neither know or care about them, or any other aspect of their electrical system other than 'it works'.

Commercial/industrial = only when insurers or some other authority requests one, and then it is done by whoever quotes the lowest price, and those receiving the document never look at it, and even if the insurer receives a copy, they probably don't look at it either, and even if they do, it is highly unlikely they understand anything written on it other than the word 'satisfactory'.

I can only express my own experience. My son does the domestic work and I work on everything else. We complete at least 2 PIRs/month. We operate in an area rich in landlords & tenants. Though the landlords never admit to being rich

Even if some fire or whatever occurs, and a relevant report was done, and a copy of it still exists, the person who produced the report will almost never be prosecuted, since the negligent party will inevitably be some other unknown individual who made alterations to the electrical system afterwards. Assuming of course that the actual cause of the fire or whatever can be identified, which in most cases it cannot. And even if it was, it could well be some hidden damaged part under a floor / wall / partition which would have been excluded on the original PIR anyway.

I have a regular industrial client in the semiconductor manufacturing business. A business which I worked within many years ago. We have a formal meeting with the facilities management team before and after the PIR. I formally present the findings from the PIR. All paperwork is kept on record.

 

[JohnW2]

The claim rate (and/or average claim size) under PI must be pretty low.

Probably zero. In reality, how often are PIRs done?
Domestic = never, since virtually all homeowners neither know or care about them, or any other aspect of their electrical system other than 'it works'.

I agree with your sentiments, but you're obviously exaggerating to a fair extent. I'm sure than many of those here will say that they do quite a lot of PIRs, for a variety of reasons - prior to major works, in connection with house sale/purchase etc. I agree that a 'routine PIR' is probably almost never done in the domestic situation. However, this is all a bit irrelevant to what I was saying, since an electrician's PI insurance obviously relates to a lot more than doing PIRs.

[quoteEven if some fire or whatever occurs, and a relevant report was done, and a copy of it still exists, the person who produced the report will almost never be prosecuted, since the negligent party will inevitably be some other unknown individual who made alterations to the electrical system afterwards. Assuming of course that the actual cause of the fire or whatever can be identified, which in most cases it cannot. And even if it was, it could well be some hidden damaged part under a floor / wall / partition which would have been excluded on the original PIR anyway.

Indeed. In fact, even if it could be established (which will rarely be possible) that the fire/whatever was due to something which could/should have been identified by the PIR, I imagine that the defence will usually be the classic 'MOT' one - that, just like an MOT certificate, a PIR only relates to the condition of an installation on the day it was issued and that "the problem may well have developed subsequently". Of course, there could be some extreme situations (e.g. RFCs wired in red/black 1mm T&E, not noted in a PIR undertaken in 2010) in which such a defence would almost certainly fail!

Kind Regards, John.

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Soon will be the day that you do need to have the relevant qualifications to do PIRs and be a member of a scheme.
I don't understand why the rules are so, that to document a new installation requires part p competency and the need to be a scheme member or work notified.
Where as a PIR does'nt, I know which I would prefer to inspect and test, between a new and old installation

 

[sparkticus]

Soon will be the day that you do need to have the relevant qualifications to do PIRs and be a member of a scheme.
I don't understand why the rules are so, that to document a new installation requires part p competency and the need to be a scheme member or work notified.
Where as a PIR does'nt, I know which I would prefer to inspect and test, between a new and old installation

Correct!

 

[Paul_C]

I don't understand why the rules are so, that to document a new installation requires part p competency and the need to be a scheme member or work notified.

There are no such rules for any work which doesn't fall under Part P though, i.e. non-dwellings.