Digression Of The Day

[ban-all-sheds]

In an installation with mixed colours, would you sleeve an unsleeved switched live black with red, or brown?

If there were no mixed colours already, and you were just replacing a switch, or a luminaire, and encountered an unmarked black switched live, would you mark it with brown, and add the notice to the CU, or red?

 

[JohnW2]

In an installation with mixed colours, would you sleeve an unsleeved switched live black with red, or brown?

I guess that most people would probably use red, for 'local consistency', although I doubt that brown would be non-compliant.

If there were no mixed colours already, and you were just replacing a switch, or a luminaire, and encountered an unmarked black switched live, would you mark it with brown, and add the notice to the CU, or red?

When you say 'no mixed colours already' do I take it that you mean all harmonised (rather than all non-harmonised)? If so, and if you had thought that's what you had, if you encountered a black, you were obviously wrong in what you thought - since there clearly are 'mixed colours' present! So stick a label on the CU and, as above, probably sleeve the black with red (although, again, brown would probably be compliant).

I suspect that you are probably thinking of some more complicated twists or approaches!

Kind Regards, John

 

[333rocky333]

If the accesory is all red or the loop/live is red and no brown evident, except the flex then switchlines i tend to sleeve red
Also the other end of said core if marked at all would most likely be red so to me one end marked red and one end brown could confuse a diyer.

But do find the blue sleeving often overlooked

unrelated i also still see many early days wiring of 3 core using red sleeved as brown and unsleeved black

 

[mfarrow]

Mixed installation, as long as it's consistent at both ends of the cable, and for all cores, then I can't see either way being a problem. I wouidn't mix up cores on the same cable though.

For all-old-colour installations, a suitable non-compliance could be using black and red sleeving on an extension. No sticker required. I have not practised it though in my limited experience, having not found a truely old-colour install.

 

[ricicle]

To digress even further, if you came across an older installation with 3 core + e (Red, yellow blue) with the blue as neutral, would you sleeve it black or leave it blue thus having an old colour line and a new colour neutral ???

 

[ban-all-sheds]

When you say 'no mixed colours already' do I take it that you mean all harmonised (rather than all non-harmonised)?

No, I mean no non-harmonised.

It's interesting to see that some people would continue with the non-harmonised colour code if that was what the cable already was - I suspect that's as much a non-compliance as adding a bit of non-harmonised cable if that's what's already in use, something which most people won't do.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I have not practised it though in my limited experience, having not found a truely old-colour install.

I'm sure there must be a huge number of properties which have had no work done on their installations for the last 7-odd years.

 

[Lectrician]

I have run out of red now, and not going to bother sourcing more. Stick a slip of brown on the red and black. Job done.

 

[securespark]

Don't forget the sticker!

 

[JohnW2]

When you say 'no mixed colours already' do I take it that you mean all harmonised (rather than all non-harmonised)?

No, I mean no non-harmonised.

In that case, wouldn't it be rather perverse to use anything other than red to sleeve a black switched live? Your bit of brown oversleeving would then be the only brown thing in the entire installation (and you'd have to add a sticker becasue of it).

It's interesting to see that some people would continue with the non-harmonised colour code if that was what the cable already was ....

As I said, that seems logical to me ('for local consistency'). If adoption as a consistent 'convention' (which I do), that also ensures that oversleeving is the same colour at both ends of a cable.

- I suspect that's as much a non-compliance as ...

I don't understand that. When talking about conductor identification, the regs accept either insulation colour or oversleeving as being compliant methods of identification. Why should a black oversleeved with red be any less compliant than any of the other red conductors in a mixed installation (with appropriate sticker)?

Kind Regards, John.

 

[JohnW2]

Mixed installation, as long as it's consistent at both ends of the cable, and for all cores, then I can't see either way being a problem. I wouidn't mix up cores on the same cable though.

As I've said, if people adopted the practice of always using sleeve colours 'appropriate' for the cable (harmonised or non-harmonised), then that would 'guarantee' the same colour sleeving at both ends, even if it were put on bt different people at different times.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

To digress even further, if you came across an older installation with 3 core + e (Red, yellow blue) with the blue as neutral, would you sleeve it black or leave it blue thus having an old colour line and a new colour neutral ???

In line with my personal convention (sleeving as 'appropriate' to the cable colours), I would probably sleeve it black - hence 'within cable consistency'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

As I said, that seems logical to me ('for local consistency'). If adoption as a consistent 'convention' (which I do), that also ensures that oversleeving is the same colour at both ends of a cable.

Which it would be if you put brown at each end.

I don't understand that. When talking about conductor identification, the regs accept either insulation colour or oversleeving as being compliant methods of identification. Why should a black oversleeved with red be any less compliant than any of the other red conductors in a mixed installation (with appropriate sticker)?

Red is no longer a compliant colour to use for identification. If you wish to oversleeve a black to indicate that it's a line conductor, brown is the colour you "must" use.

 

[JohnW2]

As I said, that seems logical to me ('for local consistency'). If adoption as a consistent 'convention' (which I do), that also ensures that oversleeving is the same colour at both ends of a cable.

Which it would be if you put brown at each end.

I need a history lesson here. Were people not oversleeving conductors prior to harmonisation (i.e. per 16th ed.)? If they were, then one end of a non-harmonised cable might already have its black oversleeved with red. If someone came across an unsleeved black S/L at the other end and sleeved it brown, there would be inconsistency between the two ends. Pre-harmonisation, no-one would have put a brown sleeve on a black, so if there were (and always had been) a 'policy' of oversleeving black with red, there would be virtually no risk that there would be a brown sleeve at t'other end. However, since there never has been such a policy, one obvioulsy cannot rely on that!

Red is no longer a compliant colour to use for identification. If you wish to oversleeve a black to indicate that it's a line conductor, brown is the colour you "must" use.

Albeit only 'informative' 2.1(i) of Appendix 7 appears to indicate that red is still acceptable for 'identification' (which, as we know, can be achieved by oversleeving) of line in an 'old' (I presume 'old colours') cable.

This is, of course, all a bit daft. For anyone who should be going anywhere near an electrical installation, it does not matter one iota whether red, brown or a mixture of sleeve colours are used! The nearest to a potential problem (as mentioned by ricicle) might relate to the blue of pre-harmonisation 3C+E cable, but they should have the knowledge to realise that caution may be needed with that.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ricicle]

The problem will lie with the semi-skilled or DIYer who knows "a bit" and ASSuMEs that the install is correctly identified at terminations but they are lacking enough knowledge to know that something can't be right or testing methods to prove it.

(Yes BAN I know they shouldn't be fiddling anyway )