Garage Electrics provided by downstairs mains ring

[sergeantash]

I'm stripping apart my house during renovation, part of which I have found an FCU in my dining room, the supply to this FCU is from my downstairs mains ring circuit, the load is a heavy duty armoured cable that runs through the wall and outside the house travelling approximately 20m to my garage, where it's connected to a sub/mini CU.

I'm wondering if this is safe and whether this supply should have it's own segmented supply direct from the house CU with its own flip-switch?

It's also worth adding that the garage has virtually zero electricity consumption, its really only to power the lights and the occasional power tool etc, but very rarely.

If it is indeed a safe way to route outdoor power, would it be safe to break into the cable at a sensible point on the exterior of the house, and add some outdoor proof suitable rated plug sockets?

My house CU is RCD protected.

 

[17thman]

how is the armoured cable installed?

What size conductors are in the swa, if it is that?

how is it glanded or terminated at the garage and fcu end?

You say that there is virtually "zero usage" but you wan to add to the demand

What supply type do you have?

Have you measured the existing earth loop?

Do you have any other services or extraneous conductive parts in the garage.

How do you know it is connected to a ring final?

Have you measured the continuity of earth, line and neutral at that point?

How do you intend to "break" into the cable?

What tools will you occasionally use?

are you planning on doing the work youself?

There may be some other questions, but some more info may be needed first

 

[sergeantash]

how is the armoured cable installed?

What size conductors are in the swa, if it is that?
how is it glanded or terminated at the garage and fcu end?
You say that there is virtually "zero usage" but you wan to add to the demand
What supply type do you have?
Have you measured the existing earth loop?
Do you have any other services or extraneous conductive parts in the garage.
How do you know it is connected to a ring final?
Have you measured the continuity of earth, line and neutral at that point?
How do you intend to "break" into the cable?
What tools will you occasionally use?
are you planning on doing the work youself?
There may be some other questions, but some more info may be needed first

Hi, thanks for your reply - I appreciate that it is never clear-cut without knowing the specifics - I will attach some photos to assist.

I haven't touched any of the electrics (or disconnected) so can't confirm the conductor size, but the cable overall is itself 10mm diameter, it is then sheaved in an additional outer-layer (total 12mm) before leaving the house through the wall.

Having just checked under the floorboards, the supply to the FCU is a spur from a socket on the downstairs main ring.

The garage load won't increase beyond present, however the outdoor socket would be used to power a home-use Karcher pressure washer occasionally, nothing more than that really.

I would propose using one of these attached to the outside wall of the house:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/MKK56506.html

...into which the feed from the house will run and loop back out to the garage (picture of the fuse box in garage is below) - I would then branch out from the above into one of these sat beside it:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/SMTPS204.html

I haven't measured the earth as I don't have suitable equipment (other than a basic 240v multimeter...lol). Finally, I am aware that this work requires notification and certification by electrician.

Here's some pictures (note that they were in perfect condition...but the room is subject to renovation and so its all covered in **** now lol)

The FCU in the house...

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• sergeantash
• 14 Feb 2012
• 1

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• sergeantash
• 14 Feb 2012
• 1

The Fuse box in the garage:

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• sergeantash
• 14 Feb 2012
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The 12mm cable sheaved exiting the house:

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• sergeantash
• 14 Feb 2012
• 1

 

[Taylortwocities]

Two immediate things

1. The socket circuit that the FCU is spurred from. Is this RCD protected, in your main consumer unit. - a photo of that would help.

2. The armoured cable. The steel protection should be earthed at the house (ie supply) end. I can see no evidence of this. A major concern.

 

[sergeantash]

Two immediate things

1. The socket circuit that the FCU is spurred from. Is this RCD protected, in your main consumer unit. - a photo of that would help.

2. The armoured cable. The steel protection should be earthed at the house (ie supply) end. I can see no evidence of this. A major concern.

Hi, thanks for your reply.

1. Yes, the downstairs ring is RCD protected, the socket from which the FCU spur branches is on this ring.

2. I can't confirm that this cable is steel armoured until I cut the power, remove the FCU and strip back the sheaving on the cable that runs to the garage. At this stage I can do without power in the garage and so I am considering removing the circuit to it if you deem it unsafe as is?

However, if non-steel armoured, would this cable be adequate to run at least to the box that I intend to mount to the house exterior as per my detail above?

Thanks again

 

[ban-all-sheds]

the load is a heavy duty armoured cable

Or not.

it's connected to a sub/mini CU.

Completely pointless when the supply is limited to 13A.

I'm wondering if this is safe and whether this supply should have it's own segmented supply direct from the house CU with its own flip-switch?

I would always advise not having outbuildings supplied from the house CU or circuits.

If it's unsafe then that will be because of the type of cable and how it's installed, or the fault loop impedance, or the export of a TN-C-S earth etc, not because it comes from an FCU.

• 
  
  
  
• //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:mcbtocable
  
  
• http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/4.3.1.htm (all subsections)
  
  
• http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/4.3.11.htm
  
  
• http://web.archive.org/web/20080213151445/http://www.kevinboone.com/cableselection_web.pdf
  
  
• http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Technical/Charts/VoltageDrop.html
  
  
• http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/5.3.1.htm
  
  
• //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:mcb2
  
  
• http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/7.13.3.htm
  
  
• http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Book/8.1.1.htm
  
  
• //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:swa-gland
  
  
• http://electrical.theiet.org/wiring-matters/16/elect-inst-outdoors.cfm?type=pdf
  
  
• //www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:part-p
  

I am aware that this work requires notification and certification by electrician.

Have him look at it, discuss your requirements, and install an appropriate solution.

 

[sergeantash]

17thman/TTC have you had time to review my reply(s)?

Appreciate your help

 

[17thman]

17thman/TTC have you had time to review my reply(s)?

Appreciate your help

Have you had time or the inclination to read the questions i asked, and read the links bas posted

 

[sergeantash]

17thman/TTC have you had time to review my reply(s)?

Appreciate your help

Have you had time or the inclination to read the questions i asked, and read the links bas posted

Yeah I responded to the questions that I could respond to.

 

[riveralt]

I would give guy a wide berth.
He only listens to what he wants to hear and turns vitriolic whenever you mention Building Regulations, Part P, testing or Local Authority Building Control. He speaks to them by the way but not to notify all the electrical work he has done on this long term renovation.
If you not careful he will start asking you whether you drive within the speed limit as he seems to think other people breaking the speed limit allows him to breach breach Part P.

So far he has electrically fitted his bathroom, kitchen, front garden and probably other areas without any notification to his local authority or it would appear any testing.
His most recent attempt to figure out how to fit PIR operated lighting in the garden by running a circuit from his kitchen light switch didn't go down well so now he is turning to his garage.

//www.diynot.com/forums/electrics/garden-pir-install-from-radial-light-circuit.312426/#2297519
//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=257284&start=0
etc etc etc

I'm not sure if I am on his ignore list, must be quite long now, but once he reads this I'm sure I will join it.

If SergeantAsh is reading these comments, just to satisfy my curiosity why don't you publish your test results for your bathroom and kitchen installations.

 

[sergeantash]

I would give guy a wide berth.
He only listens to what he wants to hear and turns vitriolic whenever you mention Building Regulations, Part P, testing or Local Authority Building Control. He speaks to them by the way but not to notify all the electrical work he has done on this long term renovation.
If you not careful he will start asking you whether you drive within the speed limit as he seems to think other people breaking the speed limit allows him to breach breach Part P.

So far he has electrically fitted his bathroom, kitchen, front garden and probably other areas without any notification to his local authority or it would appear any testing.
His most recent attempt to figure out how to fit PIR operated lighting in the garden by running a circuit from his kitchen light switch didn't go down well so now he is turning to his garage.

//www.diynot.com/forums/electrics/garden-pir-install-from-radial-light-circuit.312426/#2297519
//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=257284&start=0
etc etc etc

I'm not sure if I am on his ignore list, must be quite long now, but once he reads this I'm sure I will join it.

If SergeantAsh is reading these comments, just to satisfy my curiosity why don't you publish your test results for your bathroom and kitchen installations.

Riveralt, your responses in some past threads have been useful and constructive, but my questions don't relate to certification, notification or getting in an electrician - and let it be noted that calling in a local spark does in no way mean that the job is done properly as seen by threads on this forum, local news articles and of course...Watchdog.

I am trying to learn, trying to do this correctly and asking the questions to which I need answers, if that expands to other areas then so be it, but I do not ask for or need lecturing on notification of certification, not do I ask for arrogant, rude and patronising responses.

Testing, yes I accept and this is important, I intend to get it done as soon as possible, ideally when I have a few installations worth testing and worth the call-out cost. At this stage I simply would like answers and assistance - after all, that's what this DIY forum is for, and if it frustrates you to the point where you'll sit finding/copying/pasting old threads to antagonise and patronise members of this forum, then perhaps its time to hang up the gloves and quit.

Now, if you re-read my opening thread, I'm asking initially about the safety of this installation because my instincts told me that it was possibly unsafe - I could have simply renewed and refitted the FCU into the renovation and left it all as it has been for the last 10+ years (previous owners had it fitted), but I took the proactive approach to question it.

I'd appreciate your help.

p.s. No, you're not on my ignore list.

 

[riveralt]

Riveralt, your responses in some past threads have been useful and constructive, but my questions don't relate to certification, notification

Your questions may not but the answers certainly do - What you are doing is ILLEGAL is that clear enough for you.

I am trying to learn, trying to do this correctly and asking the questions to which I need answers, if that expands to other areas then so be it, but I do not ask for or need lecturing on notification of certification, not do I ask for arrogant, rude and patronising responses.

The first thing you should have learnt, because you have been told enough times, that the work you have completed is notifiable - but because that is not the answer you want to hear you ignore.

Testing, yes I accept and this is important, I intend to get it done as soon as possible, ideally when I have a few installations worth testing and worth the call-out cost. At this stage I simply would like answers and assistance - after all, that's what this DIY forum is for, and if it frustrates you to the point where you'll sit finding/copying/pasting old threads to antagonise and patronise members of this forum, then perhaps its time to hang up the gloves and quit.

Testing recognised....Ah a glimmer of hope... quickly dashed on the rocks of insanity - so you haven't tested the circuits before you energised them. As has already been pointed out to you on numerous occasions you cannot get circuits inspected and tested by a electrician member of a competent persons scheme unless that person has been involved the design and installation of installation - apart from your brief suggestion that you 'might' get a spark in in May 2010 thats as close as anyone has come to inspecting your circuits.

Now, if you re-read my opening thread, I'm asking initially about the safety of this installation because my instincts told me that it was possibly unsafe -

Are you not listening, never mind the garage the whole installation could be unsafe - but you don't know this because you haven't done any testing.

 

[EFLImpudence]

...Watchdog.

Watchdog is entertainment (and poor at that).

I am trying to learn, trying to do this correctly

Testing, yes I accept and this is important, I intend to get it done as soon as possible, ideally when I have a few installations worth testing and worth the call-out cost.

That's nonsense.
This is why people on the forum get upset with people like you.
You have ignored the answers - and advice saying you don't want it.

Testing must be done before energising.

 

[sergeantash]

I get the testing and notifiable element, I get it...I get it...I f*cking get it.

You're either here to help or you're not - if I asked a Policeman whether my car will do 80mph on a motorway, he'll probably reply patronisingly that "I shouldn't because its illegal". If I asked the dealership, they'll tell me the answer and potentially advise that it's of course illegal (with a chuckle), but they'll give me the answer to my question.

Why are you guys here on this forum? Are you bitter unemployed failed electricians? You have no rights to assume that my standard/quality of work is poor unless you've seen it and have the constructive justification to judge. I would wager that my quality of workmanship is better than some local sparks.

Tell me what is wrong with the workmanship here for instance (ignore the pathetic posts by BAS):
//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=224832&start=15

I am confident of my own abilities and always seek advise where I'm confused or lacking the required knowledge (which is more than some DIYers who would simply proceed without questioning). I intend to get everything tested, if in the meantime the house burns down, I can only blame myself but I accept that risk. I have not tested before energising, thats MY risk, not yours.

I'm sick of defending myself on this f*cking forum...

 

[riveralt]

I get the testing and notifiable element, I get it...I get it...I f*cking get it.

Excellent, so before you do anything else notify your Local Authority Building Control of the work you are doing. I think you will have to pay an additional fee because you have already started the work. De-energise your circuits and get them tested in accordance with BS7671. If they pass and meet the requirements of the Building Regulations then you can move onto the next stage, garage was it or front garden or was it the rear garden.

Why are you guys here on this forum?

Here to help those conducting diy work - here not to help those that ignore advice given and plough on regardless and keep coming back asking the same question without listening to the previous answers - just like you

Are you bitter unemployed failed electricians?

Unemployed no. I have my own company and am a member of a competent persons scheme, which means you don't take short cuts on matters that could affect peoples lives - unlike you who would have been sacked immediately because you don't believe in testing.

You have no rights to assume that my standard/quality of work is poor unless you've seen it and have the constructive justification to judge. I would wager that my quality of workmanship is better than some local sparks have done here.

Constructive criticism was given, regarding testing and other issues, but you keep choosing to ignore it.

Tell me what is wrong with the workmanship here for instance (ignore the pathetic posts by BAS):
//www.diynot.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=224832&start=15[/QUOTE] Do you mean ignore BAS because he is right?
It is poor workmanship because you haven't tested the circuits. For example you have every single circuit additionally protected by one RCD. You do not know whether RCD is working properly because you haven't tested it.

I am confident of my own abilities and always seek advise where I'm confused or lacking the required knowledge (which is more than some DIYers who would simply proceed without questioning). I intend to get everything tested, if in the meantime the house burns down, I can only blame myself but I accept that risk. I have not tested before energising, thats MY risk, not yours.

While it may be your risk you are asking people on this site to give you advice which is contrary to the law both morally and legally.

I'm sick of defending myself on this f*cking forum...

Then stop acting like an arse and listen to what is being said to you, repeatedly.