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Just had my boiler disconnected due to undersized pipes HELP

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1CANHELP

from United Kingdom

Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 116
Location: United Kingdom
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 12:53 pm Reply with quote

You are OLLIE20 A POORLY TRAINED AND MISGUIDED.

Just in from doing a few landlord checks this morning and was at 2 year old Baxi Duotec 33he, thought I'd have a little play to confirm what I have been saying all along is correct.

Set boiler to max rate in commssioning mode as per manufacturers instructions, the results follow:

Inlet pressures to boiler operation

Not restricted 19.5mBar Retricted via inlet valve 11mBar

O2% 5.9 9.3
CO2% 8.5 7.1
CO ppm 45 60
Flue temp 43 39
efficiency% 97 94.2
Ex Air% 39 64.8
CO/CO2 Ratio 0.0005 0.0008

Manufacturer states Co2% should be 8.7% +- 0.2 max rate and 8.4 +- 0.2 min rate.

Figures were also referenced against Kane international CO/CO2 ratio matrix for determining O2, CO2 and CO ppm levels and collarate exactly.

Well with restricted inlet working pressure as expected :

O2 and excess air increased.

CO2, flue temp and efficiency decreased.

CO ppm increased negligeably by 15 parts per million which is not even dicernable in the whole scale things. I have seen it not move and go down in the past. Therefore, all in all NO change to worry about.

CO/CO2 Ratio as statement above, no discernable movement. Still WELL WELL BELOW the trigger value of 0.008

What does this tell us girls then, it tells us that to much air on an air gas ratio valved appliance has NO dangerous effects. This is true in my experience for OIL and LPG appliances as well with numerous other manufacturers to boot.

Gatting back to the original OP, I stand by what I said in that the guy was a fool to cap off your appliance and should not have done so.

Did he carry out a flue gas analysis by the way? and if so as long as it was below 0.008 it then would be NCS not AR and definitely not ID.

As for the run of 40-50 meters for a gas pipe in a 1st floor flat Mmmm NEVER seen that EVER. Somethings not fittting here, I reckon you just pulled a cowboy firm.

I would like to see the certification if you could post it up?

Good luck but I think you'll end up getting skinned, there are a few bad timeserved apprentice trained/experienced professionals about, however this is far exceded by short course trained, franchise or BG trained inexperienced fools who don't know one end of a boiler to the other.

You just need to read what APHC, SNIPEF and CIPHE to name but a few are saying about these training courses and the bandits they produce.

Whats the saying again 'A LITTLE KNOWLEDGE IS A DANGEROUS THING'
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bengasman

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 1:45 pm Reply with quote

mancy1980 wrote:
sorry that posted again!

Hi Ben Well what do I need to do?

thanks

John

I sent you the number of a local chap who is available and reliable. he'll do what needs to be done; no more, no less
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mancy1980

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Joined: 02 Aug 2010
Posts: 10
Location: Kent,
United Kingdom

PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 4:30 pm Reply with quote

was told today that it should have been deemed not to current standard - not capped off by gas safe. However speaking to another engineer recommended to me - that due to it now being capped and having a low pressure no one will reconnect it as it will be there responsibility as 'the last person to touch it' which i can understand. will anyone reconnect it?

original company to cap it off was Warm Sure

No flue test was done - it is a long run though from the meter

Gas safe says one thing but i am told this is wrong I will be getting a quote for the pipe by the looks of it and have to pay up icon_sad.gif

No other flat has been singled out like this though so frustrating

thanks for all the notes

John
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electronicsuk

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:13 pm Reply with quote

Sorry as I haven't had time to read all 5 pages, but why don't you insist that the original engineer reconnect it?
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1CANHELP

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:23 pm Reply with quote

electronicsuk wrote:
Sorry as I haven't had time to read all 5 pages, but why don't you insist that the original engineer reconnect it?


Read what I have written and if you are suitably trained and experienced you would understand why!
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1CANHELP

from United Kingdom

Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 116
Location: United Kingdom
Thanked: 17 times

PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:30 pm Reply with quote

mancy1980 wrote:
was told today that it should have been deemed not to current standard - not capped off by gas safe. However speaking to another engineer recommended to me - that due to it now being capped and having a low pressure no one will reconnect it as it will be there responsibility as 'the last person to touch it' which i can understand. will anyone reconnect it?

original company to cap it off was Warm Sure

No flue test was done - it is a long run though from the meter

Gas safe says one thing but i am told this is wrong I will be getting a quote for the pipe by the looks of it and have to pay up icon_sad.gif

No other flat has been singled out like this though so frustrating

thanks for all the notes

John


Mancy,

It should not have been capped off OK!

Also the other engineer you spoke to seems a t1t as well, as you cannot clasify or reclasify an installation as NCS if it has never been reconnected.

Bengasman seems a decent chap, I would contact the fella he recommends and never assume or give an indication to the incoming RGI that you expect major pipework to be done or you will be skinned.

Say nowt, just that the guy said it was unsafe, capped it off and has never come back. Don't show any paperwork and let the incoming guy make his own mind up, you might be surprised and save yourself money.

Goodluck, if I lived close enough I would've come out to you out of principal as you seem to be getting poorly trained idiots.
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1CANHELP

from United Kingdom

Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 116
Location: United Kingdom
Thanked: 17 times

PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:38 pm Reply with quote

mancy1980 wrote:
was told today that it should have been deemed not to current standard - not capped off by gas safe. However speaking to another engineer recommended to me - that due to it now being capped and having a low pressure no one will reconnect it as it will be there responsibility as 'the last person to touch it' which i can understand. will anyone reconnect it?

original company to cap it off was Warm Sure

No flue test was done - it is a long run though from the meter

Gas safe says one thing but i am told this is wrong I will be getting a quote for the pipe by the looks of it and have to pay up icon_sad.gif

No other flat has been singled out like this though so frustrating

thanks for all the notes

John


Warmsure eh! a trading division of EAGA Heat, that explains it all, we'll say no more.
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electronicsuk

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:44 pm Reply with quote

1CANHELP wrote:
electronicsuk wrote:
Sorry as I haven't had time to read all 5 pages, but why don't you insist that the original engineer reconnect it?


Read what I have written and if you are suitably trained and experienced you would understand why!


No, I'm afraid I still don't understand. You seem to suggest that the appliance is not ID, and yet it has still been disconnected (wrongly it seems) by the original visiting engineer. If this is indeed the case, he should be returning to reconnect the appliance at his expense, assuming the disconnection was performed without the express permission of the OP.
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1CANHELP

from United Kingdom

Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 116
Location: United Kingdom
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 5:59 pm Reply with quote

electronicsuk wrote:
1CANHELP wrote:
electronicsuk wrote:
Sorry as I haven't had time to read all 5 pages, but why don't you insist that the original engineer reconnect it?


Read what I have written and if you are suitably trained and experienced you would understand why!


No, I'm afraid I still don't understand. You seem to suggest that the appliance is not ID, and yet it has still been disconnected (wrongly it seems) by the original visiting engineer. If this is indeed the case, he should be returning to reconnect the appliance at his expense, assuming the disconnection was performed without the express permission of the OP.


Correct it is not ID and he should return to reconnect it and clasify it correctly, however, experienced operatives like myself see this sort of work every other day, usually I might add from large organisations like warmsure/eaga and BG.

I am not suggesting it is not ID, I am saying it is not ID FACT.

It has already been stated that the lady has spoken to gas safe and they say it is not id.

She has indicated the no flue gas analysis was performed on it and if a gas rate check was done, it would have been within the guidlines as the volume of gas flowing through the dial at the sourcewould have been sufficient only that purported frictional losses have caused 10mBar loss at the inlet to the boiler.

Therefore he never took reasonable steps that a professional would to clasify it correctly, do you get what I mean?

Remember VOLUME & PRESSURE are two seperate things.
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OLLIE20

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:06 pm Reply with quote

1CANHELP wrote:
OLLIE20 wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
There is an ideal air/fuel ratio for all combustion. Get away from this, and combustion is incomplete, leaving excess oxygen [= low carbon dioxide] and high carbon monoxide, itself a [very dangerous] result of incomplete combustion. With inadequate air, of course you get high everything; carbon dioxide and monoxide, and soot.

In practice, all burners are set to a small amount of excess air to be on the safety side.


Well what do you know, when i said this i was a poorly trained **** but it seems i may have something here


You are OLLIE20 A POORLY TRAINED AND MISGUIDED C$NT.

Just in from doing a few landlord checks this morning and was at 2 year old Baxi Duotec 33he, thought I'd have a little play to confirm what I have been saying all along is correct.

Set boiler to max rate in commssioning mode as per manufacturers instructions, the results follow:

Inlet pressures to boiler in operation

Not restricted 19.5mBar Retricted via inlet valve 11mBar

O2% 5.9 9.3
CO2% 8.5 7.1
CO ppm 45 60
Flue temp 43 39
efficiency% 97 94.2
Ex Air% 39 64.8
CO/CO2 Ratio 0.0005 0.0008

Manufacturer states Co2% should be 8.7% +- 0.2 max rate and 8.4 +- 0.2 min rate.

Figures were also referenced against Kane international CO/CO2 ratio matrix for determining O2, CO2 and CO ppm levels and collarate exactly.

Well with restricted inlet working pressure as expected :

O2 and excess air increased.

CO2, flue temp and efficiency decreased.

CO ppm increased negligeably by 15 parts per million which is not even dicernable in the whole scale things. I have seen it not move and go down in the past. Therefore, all in all NO change to worry about.

CO/CO2 Ratio as statement above, no discernable movement. Still WELL WELL BELOW the trigger value of 0.008

What does this tell us girls then, it tells us that to much air on an air gas ratio valved appliance has NO dangerous effects. This is true in my experience for OIL and LPG appliances as well with numerous other manufacturers to boot.

Gatting back to the original OP, I stand by what I said in that the guy was a fool to cap off your appliance and should not have done so.

Did he carry out a flue gas analysis by the way? and if so as long as it was below 0.008 it then would be NCS not AR and definitely not ID.

As for the run of 40-50 meters for a gas pipe in a 1st floor flat Mmmm NEVER seen that EVER. Somethings not fittting here, I reckon you just pulled a cowboy firm.

I would like to see the certification if you could post it up?

Good luck but I think you'll end up getting skinned, there are a few bad timeserved apprentice trained/experienced professionals about, however this is far exceded by short course trained, franchise or BG trained inexperienced fools who don't know one end of a boiler to the other.

You just need to read what APHC, SNIPEF and CIPHE to name but a few are saying about these training courses and the bandits they produce.

Whats the saying again 'A LITTLE KNOWLEDGE IS A DANGEROUS THING'


I said id seen it on greenstars, also are the other guys who said you was wrong poorly trained idiots aswell then? Im no short course trained fool as i said 5 years but i dont know everything, where as you, ha well you know everything dont you????????
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Posted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 8:16 am    Comment:

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1CANHELP

from United Kingdom

Joined: 26 May 2010
Posts: 116
Location: United Kingdom
Thanked: 17 times

PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:15 pm Reply with quote

OLLIE20 wrote:
1CANHELP wrote:
OLLIE20 wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
There is an ideal air/fuel ratio for all combustion. Get away from this, and combustion is incomplete, leaving excess oxygen [= low carbon dioxide] and high carbon monoxide, itself a [very dangerous] result of incomplete combustion. With inadequate air, of course you get high everything; carbon dioxide and monoxide, and soot.

In practice, all burners are set to a small amount of excess air to be on the safety side.


Well what do you know, when i said this i was a poorly trained **** but it seems i may have something here


You are OLLIE20 A POORLY TRAINED AND MISGUIDED C$NT.

Just in from doing a few landlord checks this morning and was at 2 year old Baxi Duotec 33he, thought I'd have a little play to confirm what I have been saying all along is correct.

Set boiler to max rate in commssioning mode as per manufacturers instructions, the results follow:

Inlet pressures to boiler in operation

Not restricted 19.5mBar Retricted via inlet valve 11mBar

O2% 5.9 9.3
CO2% 8.5 7.1
CO ppm 45 60
Flue temp 43 39
efficiency% 97 94.2
Ex Air% 39 64.8
CO/CO2 Ratio 0.0005 0.0008

Manufacturer states Co2% should be 8.7% +- 0.2 max rate and 8.4 +- 0.2 min rate.

Figures were also referenced against Kane international CO/CO2 ratio matrix for determining O2, CO2 and CO ppm levels and collarate exactly.

Well with restricted inlet working pressure as expected :

O2 and excess air increased.

CO2, flue temp and efficiency decreased.

CO ppm increased negligeably by 15 parts per million which is not even dicernable in the whole scale things. I have seen it not move and go down in the past. Therefore, all in all NO change to worry about.

CO/CO2 Ratio as statement above, no discernable movement. Still WELL WELL BELOW the trigger value of 0.008

What does this tell us girls then, it tells us that to much air on an air gas ratio valved appliance has NO dangerous effects. This is true in my experience for OIL and LPG appliances as well with numerous other manufacturers to boot.

Gatting back to the original OP, I stand by what I said in that the guy was a fool to cap off your appliance and should not have done so.

Did he carry out a flue gas analysis by the way? and if so as long as it was below 0.008 it then would be NCS not AR and definitely not ID.

As for the run of 40-50 meters for a gas pipe in a 1st floor flat Mmmm NEVER seen that EVER. Somethings not fittting here, I reckon you just pulled a cowboy firm.

I would like to see the certification if you could post it up?

Good luck but I think you'll end up getting skinned, there are a few bad timeserved apprentice trained/experienced professionals about, however this is far exceded by short course trained, franchise or BG trained inexperienced fools who don't know one end of a boiler to the other.

You just need to read what APHC, SNIPEF and CIPHE to name but a few are saying about these training courses and the bandits they produce.

Whats the saying again 'A LITTLE KNOWLEDGE IS A DANGEROUS THING'


I said id seen it on greenstars, also are the other guys who said you was wrong poorly trained idiots aswell then? Im no short course trained fool as i said 5 years but i dont know everything, where as you, ha well you know everything dont you????????


Nobody knows everything ollie, however, I am correct on this one, it should never have been capped off period.

I have also seen it on greenstars and the FGA resulsts are always fine, not exactly ID is it?
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OLLIE20

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 6:23 pm Reply with quote

1CANHELP wrote:
OLLIE20 wrote:
1CANHELP wrote:
OLLIE20 wrote:
mysteryman wrote:
There is an ideal air/fuel ratio for all combustion. Get away from this, and combustion is incomplete, leaving excess oxygen [= low carbon dioxide] and high carbon monoxide, itself a [very dangerous] result of incomplete combustion. With inadequate air, of course you get high everything; carbon dioxide and monoxide, and soot.

In practice, all burners are set to a small amount of excess air to be on the safety side.


Well what do you know, when i said this i was a poorly trained **** but it seems i may have something here


You are OLLIE20 A POORLY TRAINED AND MISGUIDED C$NT.

Just in from doing a few landlord checks this morning and was at 2 year old Baxi Duotec 33he, thought I'd have a little play to confirm what I have been saying all along is correct.

Set boiler to max rate in commssioning mode as per manufacturers instructions, the results follow:

Inlet pressures to boiler in operation

Not restricted 19.5mBar Retricted via inlet valve 11mBar

O2% 5.9 9.3
CO2% 8.5 7.1
CO ppm 45 60
Flue temp 43 39
efficiency% 97 94.2
Ex Air% 39 64.8
CO/CO2 Ratio 0.0005 0.0008

Manufacturer states Co2% should be 8.7% +- 0.2 max rate and 8.4 +- 0.2 min rate.

Figures were also referenced against Kane international CO/CO2 ratio matrix for determining O2, CO2 and CO ppm levels and collarate exactly.

Well with restricted inlet working pressure as expected :

O2 and excess air increased.

CO2, flue temp and efficiency decreased.

CO ppm increased negligeably by 15 parts per million which is not even dicernable in the whole scale things. I have seen it not move and go down in the past. Therefore, all in all NO change to worry about.

CO/CO2 Ratio as statement above, no discernable movement. Still WELL WELL BELOW the trigger value of 0.008

What does this tell us girls then, it tells us that to much air on an air gas ratio valved appliance has NO dangerous effects. This is true in my experience for OIL and LPG appliances as well with numerous other manufacturers to boot.

Gatting back to the original OP, I stand by what I said in that the guy was a fool to cap off your appliance and should not have done so.

Did he carry out a flue gas analysis by the way? and if so as long as it was below 0.008 it then would be NCS not AR and definitely not ID.

As for the run of 40-50 meters for a gas pipe in a 1st floor flat Mmmm NEVER seen that EVER. Somethings not fittting here, I reckon you just pulled a cowboy firm.

I would like to see the certification if you could post it up?

Good luck but I think you'll end up getting skinned, there are a few bad timeserved apprentice trained/experienced professionals about, however this is far exceded by short course trained, franchise or BG trained inexperienced fools who don't know one end of a boiler to the other.

You just need to read what APHC, SNIPEF and CIPHE to name but a few are saying about these training courses and the bandits they produce.

Whats the saying again 'A LITTLE KNOWLEDGE IS A DANGEROUS THING'


I said id seen it on greenstars, also are the other guys who said you was wrong poorly trained idiots aswell then? Im no short course trained fool as i said 5 years but i dont know everything, where as you, ha well you know everything dont you????????


Nobody knows everything ollie, however, I am correct on this one, it should never have been capped off period.

I have also seen it on greenstars and the FGA resulsts are always fine, not exactly ID is it?


Now that i agree on with you 1 CAN HELP its NCS is no bad effect on combustion, however the other thing no way, im talking 3mb inlet working pressure here, trust me what i and a few other guys said is true, id love to show you and see your face, but you live far far 2 far away to get up here for me to teach you a lesson icon_lol.gif icon_lol.gif joke before you go off on 1 but it does happen, defo on greenstars remember 3mb nt 11mb or 15mb
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petit_pablo

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:26 pm Reply with quote

At 3 mb I'm suprised it even lit tbh.
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namsag

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:37 pm Reply with quote

TO the OP
This is straight from the book.
Undersized installations which do not affect the safety of any appliance in operation,or prevent any appliance(s) from operating at its intended minimum intended gas heat input rating are normally classed as NCS.

If the undersized pipework affects the safe operation of any appliance e.g combustion and/or flame stability, then escalate the classification to ID or AR as appropriate, for the affected appliances.









So its down to the guy on the job to decide not someone on the end of a phone or a keyboard.

YES he should not have capped you off but if he thought it dangerous enough and you refused the supplier would have cut you off in the street so which would you have preferred.

Rightly or wrongly it down to the guy even if he is wrong in his judgement
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gas4you

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:07 pm Reply with quote

Don't think I have ever turned off a boiler because of undersized gas supply. In fact I go out of my way first to try not to have to ask permission to turn anything off.

I have come across a lot though. I just make sure I state my findings clearly on the service sheet/CP12, stae what needs to be done to bring in to legal requirements, then get the customer or letting agent to sign it.

As far as I am concerned I have done my best and shifted the responsibility to the 'responsible person'.

I certainly cannot understand why so many in this thread appear to be almost falling out over such a simple issue icon_confused.gif
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