Underfloor heating & engineered flooring thickness

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Hi All

We`ve found some engineered wood flooring 20mm thick with a 6mm wear layer that we like for our downstairs, and i`m reading conflicting statements about how well it works with underfloor heating. The board manufacturer states its compatible, with UFH but some sites say the boards should not be more than 16mm thick another site says less than 22mm thick but with a board thickness to width ration of no more than 4:1. Ours is nearer 10:1.

Anyone care to shed some light on it all?

Thanks
 
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Others may well have more useful/informed things to say, but ....

.... regardless of what manufacturers say, I think I would be asking myself what would happen if I enclosed all the radiators in my house inside 20mm thick wooden boxes!

UFH has definite limitations at the best of times, but I think that common sense (and physics) dictates that it will 'deteriorate' as the thickness of the covering increases (and wood/wood products are quite a good thermal insulators), particularly in terms of how long it takes for the (exposed) surface of the flooring to warm up to some extent.

Kind Regards, John
 
What sort of ufh?

What floor construction?

Some options are better than others.....although I cant remember which....

Wood effect tiles is a better option for ufh

Or amtico / karndean if you want a softer feel.
 
i`m reading conflicting statements about how well it works with underfloor heating.
As John says, it will work as well as boxing in your CH radiators with 20mm thick wood.


The board manufacturer states its compatible, with UFH
Maybe all they mean is that it won't be damaged by it.


but some sites say the boards should not be more than 16mm thick
Try boxing in your CH rads with 16mm thick timber. See how well they work.


another site says less than 22mm thick but with a board thickness to width ration of no more than 4:1.
You have to wonder what grasp of physics they have if they think that that ratio is relevant.
 
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There is an absolute maximum in a wood floor of 27°C so assuming you want the room at 20°C there is just 7°C differential not really enough to keep a room warm, at best it keeps the floor warm. We have it in a wet room, since tiles allowed 29°C but all it does is dry the floor and even that is slow.

Of course there are ways to get more heat into the room, a standard radiator at 65°C to 80°C can have a really high output yet be quite small be blowing air through the radiator so one can't simply say it will not work, with heat recovery units ensuring an air flow it may work, however one is not really sure how hot electric underfloor heating is, you know how hot the sensor is, but the sensor is normally in a pocket midway between heating wires so next to heating wires it could be much hotter. There is a chemical type which changes resistance according to temperature so does have a limit to maximum heat, but place any furniture on the floor and temperature can get really high. We had carers put towels on the floor to dry the floor, and when I picked them up it was really hot underneath them.

Only safe was is hot water, it of course needs treating, but at least you can be sure it never exceeds that 27°C. However with the pipes at 27°C put those towels on the floor and yes floor will heat to 27°C but with free air likely only 22°C that is OK with a quarry tiled which would otherwise be cold to the feet, but wood is warm to feet anyway so in real terms it will do nothing but waste money.
 
Hi , thanks for the replies.

As someone asked its electric underfloor heating and a ply floor covering.

I think will probably go for something around 12mm thick engineered board, at least then it will be within the general UFH manufacturers guide lines. Would rather not have tiled or vinyl floor really . Its for use in a kitchen/lounge and hallway.
 
What are you hoping that the UFH will do?

Just take the chill off the floor, or actually heat the house?

The former isn't needed with wood, and the latter it probably won't - see above comments about lagging your radiators.
 
Id say probably both, heat to touch and heat the rooms. We have a couple of friends who both have had underfloor heating put in with wood flooring and they both said its great. Actually had to turn it down as it was warming up too much. But theirs is around the 12-14mm depth. So am just wondering what effect the 20mm would have.
 
It would increase the temperature drop across the wood by about 50%, requiring that the pipe temperature should be slightly higher (but well within design requirements). As long as there is adequate insulation below the pipes (important) there will be no difference in room heating effect.
 
Id say probably both, heat to touch and heat the rooms.
Wood is naturally "warm" - with adequate insulation underneath it does not need to be artificially heated, and without it you'll be trying to heat the Earth.

As for the latter - good luck.
 
My sister told me how lovely her friends house was with underfloor heating, and I had stopped in a boarding house with a black tiled floor outside the shower within the shower room and yes it was lovely stepping out onto a lovely warm floor, which dried quickly.

When fitted to mothers wet room we made errors. One was sculptured tiles, fitted for extra grip, but do not drain as well as smooth so stay wet. The other was the pocket holding the sensor had too sharp a bend, so when the sensor went wrong we could not renew it.

The first job was a band jack and remove the original floor, then polystyrene blocks fitted covered with around 15 mm thick plywood to stop heat going down into the floor, the polystyrene blocks around 4 inches thick. The heating cable was then laid and a special glue used to fix the tiles on top, this caused a problem first time around as out of date and would not set. A towel rail was also fitted.

The room is around 1.5 meters x 3 meters and the heating cables span whole floor, toilet is held on wall so even under toilet is heated. The tiles are slow to heat, takes around 1.5 hours for them to reach temperature, and the shower soon cools them, so after a shower it takes around 1/2 hour to dry floor if surface water is swept to drain. However if towel rail is turned off, then around the coldest room in the house. Other than warm feet it seems to make no effect to general heat of the room. In all very disappointing.

So I looked at the maths, the towel rail is at around 70°C that's 50°C over the temperature required for room, and around 1 meter² surface area, the heat output is not linear the curve goes up as temperature increases, however for simplicity late us say it is. So floor is 4.5 meter² but just 7°C differential. So 7 x 4.5 = 30.5 and 50 x 1 = 50 so at least 40% extra heat, by time you add the fact it is not a straight line graph and it does not auto start an air flow, one is looking at the towel rail being over twice as good as under floor heating.

Underfloor heating "Hypocaust" has been going for a long time
chester15big.jpg
picture of some early examples, however we have learnt it simply does not work, we stopped using underfloor heating for some 1500 years, there is a reason, it doesn't work. Yes my son have underfloor heating, and yes it does what he wants, that is to cool the water in the Aga back boiler when it is too hot, it is a method to store heat, so the bedroom floor gets warm and the standard central heating radiators turn off. But the energy is stored in the floor, so heating would need to be on 24/7.

Today we are looking at the reverse, swapping standard radiators for fan assisted radiators so rooms warm up, and of course also cool down quicker than with standard radiators. This means less time is required to heat the house so heating can be automatically turned on with geofencing as it detects our mobile phone getting close to home. Not saying it works, it is still too slow heating the house. But we are dumping storage radiators and going for speed heating the home, and you are trying to return to Roman times, still trying to live in the 1st century not the 21st century.
 
UFH is superior BECAUSE of the thermal inertia, large surface area and reduced component count. The comparison with roman technology is unfair because of course they didn't have a choice back then, to pick DRY UFH or water filled radiators. Roman UFH relied on setting a fire beneath the floor and letting the smoke heat the stone. Clearly there is no temperature control, the fire needs to be set in a difficult spot and of course smoke must have leaked into the room. Plenty of other reasons to sack it off, but none which invalidate the benefits of modern wet UFH.

When the Romans stopped using UFH 1500 years ago, did they dump it and go with fan assisted rads and low thermal inertia buildings? Of course not!

Nozzle
 
... Plenty of other reasons to sack it off, but none which invalidate the benefits of modern wet UFH.
That may be a proposition which could be debated but, in any event, the OP is talking about 'dry' (electric) UFH.

Does not one of the main problems with (any type of) UFH, as compared with conventional wet CH, (in terms of room heating) derive from the dramatic difference between the maximum acceptable temperatures of floor and a radiator, coupled with the relatively inefficiency of the floor as regards convection (as compared with a finned, or even fan-assisted, radiator) - which, at the least, will result in it taking a very much longer time to heat up a room from cold? That becomes less of a problem if (I imagine like the Romans) one keeps the UFH runni ng 24/7, but that is likely to be an expensive strategy - other than, perhaps, in an extremely well-insulated house.

Kind Regards, John
 
Sorry, I had thought this was wet UFH. I guess I was mislead by people going on about putting wood round radiators...
 
Sorry, I had thought this was wet UFH.
No ....
... its electric underfloor heating and a ply floor covering.
I guess I was mislead by people going on about putting wood round radiators...
That would have been me (in the first instance), so I'm sorry if I misled you. I was merely saying (before we knew the type of UFH) that, if it were me, I would be considering the effect of putting 20mm of wood/wood products between the heat source (whatever) and the room I was hoping to heat.

Kind Regards, John
 

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