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Riveralt "In its narrowest definition monetary wealth (M1 to M whatever we are up to now) is simply a value placed on products or services that acts as a lubricant for the economy. Your idea that wealth is somehow a zero sum game fails to reflect these variables". Money supply measures...

And rightly so, because it's not true. Simply moving money is not wealth creation ...

EFLImpudence "As long as the share-value of the bank does not decrease then nothing has changed". There would be a major hole in the bank's balance sheet requiring a rights issue and which would lower its lending capacity. Something else must have lifted the stock price !!! "Where did...

Well, we have been confining the definition of wealth to "money and assets" ... it gets overly complicated otherwise If you freeze time, then at that very moment there is a fixed stock of assets and cash; but money is constantly created (and destroyed) by the banking sector: a loan is spent...

Wow John, that was like reading an old text book :P Although I grant you that the definition of wealth is not agreed upon, thinking has changed since we left the gold standard in 1931 !!! Fractional reserve lending means that deposits create deposits, which create (or facilitate the creation of)...

Not really John .... there would be no transfer of wealth from customers/savers who are divorced from a savings/lending process which would generate wealth in the event of positive returns on the investment. After years of being subjected to accusations of wreckless lending, the government...

Your blaming banks for being forced to make use of lax regulations to do anything in their power to compete in a break neck industry? If there were no regs in the electrical industry, what do you think would happen? Casinos? I take it this non-commercial, moral stance prompted you to halt...

Well, I did provide a precis of the process above (and I'm sure you noted my presumption that, irrespective of how you define wealth, it must be applied evenly) ... but if you insist on more, then try this: ask yourself 'how does an electrician create wealth?', and then try and adapt it to...

That's close to the verbal equivalent of Escher's staircase, but I think you could be describing the process of just, well, selling stuff, no?

You're persistent with this "traders / banks move wealth around" thing. That's the whole point: the core activity of banks is to facilitate the creation of wealth by lending for investment. As part of the process, they extract a margin (call it wealth creation if you want) just like any other...

? Er, yeah ... A comment you've clearly reeled off before despite failing to understand the issue

... A glib comment that displays a complete lack of understanding of the sector's importance to you and the country, and of the many, many thousands of people in the sector that dont deserve the opprobrium heaped upon them by the willingly uninformed

Hmm, 17th man's tirade is a bit of a mish mash, but it demands a bit of a leap to infer his support for "unregulated capitalism" etc As for JohnD's ".. But as long as they continue to pay themselves vast mounds of the nation's cash, why would they strike?" ... Certainly, bankers do not...

Thanks for indulging me guys .... it's fairly clear from your responses that the benefits of 12v lighting viz 230v are at least equivocal. So it's interesting that the industry has developed as it has ... can the perceived benefits of 12v be such that one of the sheds' importers hasn't called a...

Hmm, OK - so they exist. So it begs the question as to why fittings like this (for eg): http://www.weybridgelights.co.uk/lighting/Jogg-12-Arm-Pendant-Light.html bother with a built-in transformer. Is the fact that your G4 example is from Hong Kong evidence of their scarcity over here...

I'm filing this under "things I always wanted to ask ... but". I see that some multi-arm chandeliers have built-in transformers that use 10w G4s @ 12v. Given that low wattage GU10s run off 240v, what is that prevents G4s doing likewise? Is it that the reciprocal resistance of the filament...

All duly noted .... though a little unfair given what was meant to be a light-hearted comment. The point I made was self-contained and a rejoinder to a general statement that has been discussed many times on this forum. I wasnt making, nor did I need to make any assumptions about anything.

If, as a DIYer, I may impudently interject (ooh err) to pre-empt a pointless discussion, Securespark means "should" in the practical sense rather than the legal sense, no? Putting up a 500w floodlight on a lighting circuit would take up c 30% of the available power. But I guess you knew that...

Cant thank you all enough for taking the time to reply - truly appreciated. Once I've sobered up tomorrow morning, I'll get going on this .... :wink: