Concealed auto closer

[Jonny Fingers]

I'm i want to replace auto closers on my doors. They are too stiff and cause doors to slam. Any difference in models?
I've got some cheap concealed closers by Carlisle Brass. They are adjustable but on their loosest setting still slam too hard. I'm thinking about stepping up to the Perko or maybe Astra Hydraulic. I can't find enough info on their closing forces.

I would remove them altogether but i need to keep the 30min fire rating in my flat.
Maybe i keep them but install a hinge spring to counteract the force a little.

 

[crank39]

What about a surface mounted spring loaded door closer, adjustable depending on how much load you wind on, however to retain your fire rating it'll still need enough force to latch the door which may result in it slamming anyway, cheap as chips though so might be worth a go and simple to fit, watch your fingers though if and when removing the concealed closer

 

[JohnD]

I have Perko and find them better than the cheaper copies. They do a hydraulic damped version which is incredibly expensive.

Interestingly, the tumescent strips with furry smoke seal buffer the final close a bit if you have a problem with slamming.

I have not been able to find a neat little buffer.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

I think it's still only Perko that does the soft opening one as mentioned, it's designed to be DDA compliant, or disabled user friendly in layman's terms.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Perkos are horrible things to install (watch your fingers) - a pet hate of many joiners in the past - and other than the newer finely adjustable models, which as stated are very expensive, they always seem to slam doors, because the closing motion isn't very controllable.

...the tumescent strips with furry smoke seal buffer the final close a bit if you have a problem with slamming.

But only for a while, John. The pile gradually flattens down which reduces their "buffering" action, and then the door slams again. Which is why you install then return several times to adjust as the closer seals and the pile both bed in (often a week then a month into use - this after care step is missed a lot, leading to doors almost always slamming). In any case a fire door closer is supposed to be able to fully close a door - and for that reason I'd say sprung hinges are really a no-no as they deliberately counteract the closer motion and may prevent the door from fully seating in the door casing properly, in which case the fire door isn't fulfilling its' function which is to close and seal in order to reduce the speed at which smoke and fire spread through the building

A possibility which might work (in conjunction with standard Perkos) is a Dictator door check closer, which controls the final closing action of the door, but IMHO they are hardly attractive, although they are smaller than a standard door closer. That said some of the older cast designs used in period buildings can look appropriate

Another alternative might be the the single arm track arm fire door closer where the 2-piece closer arm is replaced by a one piece arm and a covered slide unit which generally fits onto the architrave. These seem to be used a lot more in hotels and the like where aesthetics are more important to the cluent, but they are an expensive option against standard closers

 

[Jonny Fingers]

Thanks for the info.
In another thread i mentioned the door is fitted with hush latches. I find the latch engages fine even when closed from half an inch ajar. I'm confident if i could reduce closing speed by 80% the door will still close safely.
I lack the experience of a professional. I wish there was a way of testing out old parts before committing to buying a new part.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

I'm confident if i could reduce closing speed by 80% the door will still close safely.

Is your closer a single stage one? I haven't fitted one of those for years. Modern closers have two stages - the first stage (closing stage) is from about 120 (or more) to 15 degrees or so, the second stage is from 15 degrees to zero (closed) - the latch stage. Some closers also feature a door weight preset. If your door is slamming, then in all probabity the latch stage just needs adjusting (as I inferred above), a simple job with a screwdriver or Allen key (depending on the model). Have you actually tried that?

Knowing the make and model of closer you have might help solve the slamming

 

[Jonny Fingers]

Thanks. I think these are single stage. There's only one adjustment. They are by Carlisle Brass AA45.
I think i can get a nice expensive concealed 2 stage closer. A bulky cheap closer or maybe bodge one with a dampener mechanism/material.

 

[Deleted member 174758]

I didn't realise from what you had written that you did not have a surface mounted (i.e. conventional) fire door closer and I was referring to conventional surface mounted closers. So apologies for any confusion

Yours (Carlisle AA45) is a Perko-style closer (dreadful things). Those are always 1-stage and they can't ever be finely adjusted, but you can at least adjust the spring tension, as stated in the manual for the closer, here (click on "Fitting Instructions Concealed Door Closer"). Just watch your fingers - they are notorious amongst joiners for their ability to pinch and trap fingers whenbeing installed or adjusted. This is why they are so hated. But unlike a conventional closer, Perko style closers are merely a spring inside a tube - no fancy hydrailic dampenerss - so the only thing you can do is turn the spring tension up or down. Perko-type door closers are classed as 'uncontrolled door closers' and according to SafeLincs (one of the major suppliers of fire door equipment in the UK) may not be suitable for all new build projects, which is presumably why they are so rarely fitted these days.

Anyway, you'll probably never get it to close quietly unless you replace it with a Perko Powermatic (c.£250 to £300?). Frankly, I'd just go with a sub-£30 surface mounted 2-stage closer. Those do work well and can be finely adjusted without risking bruising your fingers, but they are not concealed