Feed and (no?) expansion tank

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Hello all,
I have trawled the forums here, but cannot find an answer to my possibly unique situation??

I have recently moved into a new home, and have been troubled by air in the heating system. Basically filling a couple of first floor rads, which I've bled every few weeks (so system is probably water only now, no inhibitor, if there ever was any!). This air also causes periodic noise in the airing cupboard as it 'surges' through the pump, and can sometimes be heard bubbling through the rads.
I checked the f/e tank and found to be operating correctly i.e. draws in when bleeding rads, level covers feed outlet when cold/off, doesn't seem to pump over when in operation. I tested the vent with jar of water, and there is a slight pressure disturbance when the pump is started, though no water was taken or returned to jar.
I cannot find a leak anywhere on the system.

So I took the next course of action, and contracted a British company specialising in Gas, to attend under a fix&maintain type Homecare contract.
The boiler (Ideal Classic, ~10y/o) was serviced and found to be in good order. The source of air was decided to be the vent pipe on the f/e tank, and this was subsequently chopped off and 'capped', and a powerflush was recommended.

The two issues I guess I have now are:
...that a 600 quid powerflush will probably improve the system, due to the inevitable corrosion (there is some noticable in the f/e tank). But I'm aware this may cause other issues, pinholing etc. And this still doesn't resolve the 'source of air' issue, I don't believe.
...but perhaps more seriously, I no longer have a vent, so this becomes a feed tank only, as I see it! I questioned the engineer by phone, and was told that as the feed pipe is 22mm, this is sufficient to provide the venting functionality (according to the regs). Is this true? I cannot find anything about these 'regs', and I'm concerned that the 'cap' (a white plastic cap attached to the recently chopped off vent pipe, below the water level of the f/e tank) may leak or worse, come off completely under regular temperature/pressure fluctuations.

Sorry for the long-winded explanation, but if you can help, I'm sure you'd be happier with the full details. I appreciate the time taken to read this.
Thank you.
Paul
 
I`d get another engineer to re pipe the F/E tank with a proper separate feed and separate expansion pipe in the correct position into the pipework from the boler on the suction side of the pump :idea: It ain`t rocket science but there are hundreds done wrong. You don`t need a Gas Safe engineer unless the boiler needs touching. Get it piped right - then consider a powerflush. Not in E. Sussex are you :wink: :wink:
 
My system has worked satisfactorily for 22years with a combined feed and expansion pipe. However the plastic cap sounds a bit suspect.
If your system has not been inhibited, what you are expelling from the rads is probably not air, but hydrogen gas generated by the contamination
 
Thanks for the responses.
No Nige, opposite end of the country I'm afraid :P
The f/e piping appears to be on the suction side.
I was half expecting the boiler heat/ex to be holed, but apparently its in good order.

I'm happy to do a bit of plumbing if its required. I'm considering refitting the vent/overflow pipe, so putting the system back as it was.

I also tried testing the bleed air with an ignition source, and got no pop, so I don't believe it is hydrogen. But a useful suggestion, thanks. 22 years is a good time for a single f/e pipe to be considered suitable, so I can maybe rest easy about the expansion capabilities.

The rads all seem to get hot together, and no obvious sign of blockage, so I was hoping to avoid a powerlush (and all its related problems), at least until the air issue has been resolved. Maybe this isn't the right approach?
I need to find this air source. Maybe the 'cap' will eventually prove to be the right solution, but its difficult to tell right now, as he's blad the system again - and so it sounds good again (as it always does just after bleeding).
I'll get some inhibitor in the system this weekend hopefully - B&Q permitting... :roll:
 
How high is the tank from the highest point on the heating system (excluding vent/feed pipe)?

Sounds like a push fit cap end, wouldn't worry about it :D

Sam
 
If the vent is teed and then the cold feed and then the pump, and also the pump is approx 1.5 metres from the F & E tank water level, and the vent pipe over the header tank water level before iit bends (loops) over and into it, is approx 450mm, then air should not be drawn into your system.

Also the feed/vent connection (tee's) should not be more than 6 inches/150mm apart.

Hydrgoen in rads would cause some cold spots too as well as a buold up of gas at the top (but you say this is not the case anyway)

Are any rads/pump unions not fully tightened and drawing air in when the pump's running? (check for any water leaks/puddles when the system is off).

My rad was drawing air in constantly downstairs as the cap end at one side was not fully tight (some vent/cap ends are pre welded onto rads though so cannot be tightened).


I've also been told it is not unusual for 1 or 2 rads to requrire venting every now and again. Bu yours seems exessive.
 
The 11 quid is for a pack of ten though :wink:

I definitely cannot find any visible leaks on the system, unless of course its within a wall cavity or something - but again, nothing obvious.

I'll get the tape measure out and map out the arrangement and dimensions etc. I have checked the rads and nothing appears loose (I tightened up some fittings when I first moved in, during the first bleed attempt, but the problem still exists - they're still tight now).

Theres not much to go on really is there...

Not convinced the powerflush is a great idea atm. I'll see how the vent mod goes with time I guess...
 
Just to follow up - the capping-off of the vent pipe does not seem to have resolved the issue.

I can hear the return of the 'air' surging through the system again. Not too bad at the moment and less often than before, but its getting increasingly noticeable. I haven't tried bleeding the rads yet, as they're still feeling pretty full, but it wont be long.. :cry:

Doomed...
 
I usually cure these problems by converting to a combined feed and vent and charge about £120 if the F&E is reasonably accessible.

Sometimes I have to raise the F&E by about 150mm to get the feed pipe to tee into the vent in the correct position.

As long as there are no leaking fittings on the suction side of the pump this is usually all that is required.

Tony
 
That seems to be what this engineer has done - though he's done so by just chopping off and capping the vent.
So there is now just a 22mm pipe that acts as a feed and vent, which runs down about 4ft from the f/e tank, to the suction side of pump, and about 4 inches along there is a redundant 3.5ft pipe leading up to a blanked end, next to the f/e.
I cannot find any leaks on the system, and the air is definitely returning to the system - I can't get my head around it, and I'm loathe to ask back the engineer in case he hacks up another bit of the system.

(they called back this evening harrassing me to accept the 600 quid powerflush option - I had to bite my tongue :x )
 
Unsure as to if it would make any difference but AFAIK it should be Vent (22mm), then cold feed, (within 150mm of each other), then pump. May be worth converting the existing cold feed to a 22mm vent then utilising former capped off vent as the cold feed.

Possible there is a small leak on suction side of pump, not enough to let water out but enough to draw air in.
 
That seems to be what this engineer has done - though he's done so by just chopping off and capping the vent.

Thats not really the ideal situation!

I use the 22 mm vent as the vent as this enables air to easily come out.

Then 15 mm feed from the tank teed into the 22 mm just below the tank.

Tony
 
A different engineer is due to arrive tomorrow to look at this problem.
I'll see if I can grill him on his views on this.
Will report back here, just in case anyone is interested :)
Wish me luck :?
 

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