Condensation

[Hugh Jaleak]

My stepdaughter has been living in a Housing Association flat for about 12 months now, and is again experiencing major issues with condensation. Would welcome some opinions before I tackle the HA about it.

Condensation was a major issue when she first moved in Dec last year. HA said place had been empty so was damp, fair enough. Neighbour then informed us the drain running under the flat had broken so that may be the cause. (Definate evidence of concrete floor being patched in large areas internally.) Heating (Gas fired radiators), was being used as much as she could afford, obviously as the warmer weather arrived, problem ceased.

Back to present. Windows, (uPVC double glazed), and the reveals are absolutely dripping wet, there is substantial mould growth starting to appear again and her efforts made to decorate are being ruined by the wet. Tumble dryer is vented to outside, no calor gas fire etc is used, boiler is a Baxi HE balanced flue type.

Windows do seem extremely cold to the touch internally, as does internal surface of outside walls, so can understand why she's getting condensation but not why so much! I am really at a loss to see where all the moisture is coming from. Dehumidifier was set up today, it was pulling about a litre of water an hour from the air. Normal?

Any advice appreciated, she has a toddler and a 2 week old baby in there, and i'm concerned for their health.

 

[dishman]

What type of flat? Ground floor with someone living above?

She has gas central heating, how does she normally use this at the moment? On all day?
Twice a day? Only when it gets really cold to save money? Does she keep some rooms cold and the ones she uses warm? Is it forming on all windows in the house? How does she ventilate the rooms normally? Does the bathroom have an extractor? Does the kitchen have an extractor?

Re the broken drain: You infer it is still broken? Is it still broken or has it been repaired? Is there damp on the floor/coming up the walls? You need to get that fixed if still broken! A Housing Association should have an emergency repair number? They have to follow government guidelines regarding repairing potentially "dangerous" problems

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/engla...ght_to_repair_england_wales_and_scotland_only

Read specifically the section on right to repair. Get it fixed! Kick up a bit of a fuss if they drag their feet!

 

[dishman]

ignore - double post

 

[Hugh Jaleak]

Cheers Dishman, in answer to your questions, ground floor with flat above occupied. Heating is on morning and evening, also during day if really cold. (No other form of heating in the place.) Condensation is forming on all windows, keeps windows shut to try and keep the place warm. Bathroom and kitchen both have extractors, she doesnt do a lot of cooking, and baths are snatched while kids are asleep!

Drain I believe has been fixed, need to go and lift manhole covers to check if drain actually goes under building. (The tenant upstairs told her about the drain problem, not entirely sure if he's on earth or somewhere else most of the time though....)

HA are useless regarding repairs, I gave them a snagging list when she moved in, still awaiting most of those to be done. I've actually got a week off work next week so will be doing some chasing up of what needs doing and trying to get some answers. General opinion of most tenants is HA are useless at anything other than collecting rent, really needs everyone to band together and force the HA's hand!

I'm just at a loss to work out where so much moisture is coming from, unless moisture levels are fairly normal and the sealed units in the windows are faulty, and not offering the heat barrier they should. With myself, her mother and brother in my house we get NO condensation!

 

[dishman]

It looks to be normal seasonal condensation but is exacerbated by the occupier in an older property/flat with not enough ventilation. Unfortunately, many people do not understand why condensation forms and how to reduce it. Many people blame the windows etc but it is more about achieving a good balance of ventillation and insulation/warmth.

It sounds like your step daughter is doing many things right but there are a number of things you need to go through to improve the situation.

1) More ventilation. You say the double glazing is closed, this may be part of the problem. You need to ensure the trickle vents are open and clear. If you have none or that doesn't work, ensure the windows (if modern double glazing are on the night lock mode (locked but open with slight air gap). If they are really old you may just have to have them open a crack. Basically you need air flow/circulation.

If you have a warm room, but no ventilation, condensation will form on the coldest surface i.e the window or an outside wall. The warm air needs to circulate (and warm all surfaces a bit) and the moist air, somewhere to go...outside. If you seal the moist air in a warm room it can only go to a cold surface....

2)Try to have the heating on at a lower temperature all day, if possible. Heating and cooling will encourage condensation to form on any cold surfaces.

3) Check the tumble dryer is venting outside properly and the seal is tight and the pipe is not blocked etc. You should be able to tell quite quickly if it is not as the room will steam up quickly if there is a leak in the extraction pipe. Do Not dry clothes on radiators! A lot of people do this to keep bills down, this is a major cause of exessive condensation, but it sounds like she is not doing this.

Basically - do not heat up and seal the property, especially an old property....

Read through these manuals, they go through everything:

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/1125/0011805.pdf

or this

http://www.nhbc.co.uk/NHBCPublicati.../HomeownerDocuments/filedownload,31929,en.pdf

 

[Hugh Jaleak]

Tumble dryer is venting outside, I know as I fitted it! Hose was checked yesterday, all in order and remains connected as required. In fairness, there are 6 flats in the block, and 2 blocks, all the flats seem to have a condensation issue, just none as bad as this!

I will go with your advice and increase ventilation, see if it makes a difference. Might be worth noting, the property was vacant when she looked at it before accepting, and condensation was an issue then without anyone occupying or indeed any heating on! It does seem odd to me though how cold the internal glazing is, I would have expected the internal surface of sealed units to be somewhat warmer than the outside....

In comparison with my Victorian Terrace (we have virtually no condensation anywhere unless cooking a lot of veg!), there seems an awful lot of moisture in the air in that flat! point of note reading the leaflets, there is a (now disused) chimney through the middle of the flat, unsure if that is ventilated. Will check.....

 

[dishman]

In older properties that haven't been over sealed to modern standards, there is so much ventilation and air flow that condensation has a hard time to form and when it did it was usually on the very cold single glazed windows. You also get heat from rooms below. Which keeps things warm all over. When upvc windows installed there is usually enough natural ventillation to avoid major condensation.

Many times you begin to get condensation problems in old properties when they are over upgraded to modern standards (they were not designed to be air tight) because some areas can't be insulated properly, there is a cold spot and the condensation starts to form there rather than escaping or forming on windows.

Flats however can often be like concrete bunkers. No natural ventilation, windows to one elevation so no air flow through the house and when upgraded to upvc, they have even less, so the windows are the only cold surface for it to go, even if upvc. So, however counter-intuitive, much more ventilation and more constant heating should help.

Out of interest, what is the flat period/design 1960s, 1970s? Windows to one elevation?

 

[Hugh Jaleak]

I would guess circa 1960's. Central corridor in flat, two large rooms side by side on front, bathroom, kitchen and 2nd bedroom in that order on rear, giving windows to both front and rear elevations. Accessed from communal foyer. (Flat opposite is a mirror image, both have another 2 on top, making 6 in the block.)

I have a suspicion looking at the design, that the side walls are of fairly substantial construction and form the structural element, the front/rear walls are simply infill panels. Could explain why front/rear walls (and windows) are so cold. There is a noticeable difference in the surface temperature of the gable wall and the front wall, standing in the corner of the end room, (Daughters bedroom), and touching each wall in turn. Front is South facing, yet if anything seems worse than rear.

 

[dishman]

Are the cavitys insulated? The HA should have done this by now, with the decent homes standard and all of the incentives/grants in the past. If not maybe get on to them as to why not.

In the mean time concentrate on good ventilation/airflow, and a good constant even temperature throughout the house.

 

[Architexeter]

You are right to look outside and check for defects first as this can be a cause of damp but:

To me this could be a classic case of house humidity. I have not read the above so apologies for any repeats.

First question, do you have an extractor in your kitchen and bathroom? I'm going to assume no. Is washing dried in the flat? I'm going to assume yes.

Generally living in a house you generate water vapour in may ways - water vapour wants to condensate and will try to find a cold surface so that it can do. Back when we all had single glazed windows it was a no brainer for the water vapour, it went "Brilliant, cold window, thanks very much" and you had a puddle on your sill. Nowadays this in not the case and water vapour will float around and condensate on the next coldest thing - voila - your window reveals.

Verdict:
1. Fit extractor in kitchen and bathrooms and use them!
2. Dry washing outside or in a warm, well ventilated room.
3. Heat - keeps water vapour in vapour form longer until the extractor can suck it out.
4. Insulate where possible.

Think insulation, think condensation, think ventilation!

Read more: //www.diynot.com/forums/building/cause-of-damp-on-bedroom-wall.385039/#ixzz2myBn1w6n

 

[dishman]

As a final suggestion, if the suggestions posted still do not work, or the amount ventilation you require to reduce the condensation is not practical, you may want to consider installing further extractors in all rooms.

If you choose extractors with backdraft shutters, that should ensure you don't get gusts if cold air coming in. A quick look on vent-axias website show they do a range of discrete and near silent mechanical extractors with humidistats.

If wiring them in is too much trouble, maybe look a just extra natural air vents in each room. I guess it would be more secure then keeping your windows open or on locked night vent (especially if on ground floor).

Will need HA permission though, or maybe you find a way to get them to pay for/install them.

However the simplist/cheapest most effective solutions are those posted/discussed previously.

 

[Hugh Jaleak]

Architexter, laundry is dried using tumble dryer, ventilated to outside. Extractors in kitchen and bathroom. Understand your remarks about single glazed windows, remember very well growing up having ice on the inside or the bedroom window! However, property in question is fitted with uPVC double glazing, but entire wall including internal glass is extremely cold, (I would even go so far to say surface temp on internal glass isn't much higher than the external temperature at the time!), and whole lot is getting very damp!

Will make some adjustments as suggested and monitor the situation. Many thanks.

 

[catlad]

There will be inadequate insulation in a construction of that era, and they would not have been built with double glazing that coupled with the fact that it is a housing association property my advice would be move.

 

[Hugh Jaleak]

Funny you should say that catlad, I was speaking yesterday, to a friend who's sister in law lives in the house next door to the flats. Apparently that particular flat is renowned for condensation problems. There have been a number of tenants in it over the last few years, each one has been offered alternative accommodation (eventually....) after complaining about the condensation/damp problem. IIRC the original windows were the 'Crittall' steel frames, (obviously single glazed).

What do HA do? Nothing, apart from put another tenant in it, and the cycle repeats......

 

[dishman]

Moving may be ideal, however it does not solve the underlying issue, which is about ventilating/heating a property (any property) correctly. The number of times I have been to houses (tenants in flats especially) where the occupier is complaining about damp and they are doing everything to (unintentionally) create and exacerbate it!

So even if they moved into a new house they would probably create the same problem there (not saying that this is the case in this situation).

Regarding the housing association, they should be upgrading the properties as a point of law. The decent homes standard requires housing associations to ensure that their flats meet where possible,good/modern standards of living conditions:

https://www.gov.uk/government/polic...ages/decent-homes-refurbishing-social-housing

Now, it depends on how these houses are constructed, do they have cavity walls? Have they been insulated? Is the double glazing recent or 1st generation (in which case, they may need to be updated as part of the decent homes standard).

However, as posted above, if a house has double glazing, is not heated effectively and does not have enough ventilation, it can make internal damp worse...