House Re-Wire

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richard1600

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hi all,,

basically have an old house and am aware that the wiring is not to 17th edt regs...

had the kitchen movved and a sparks came in and installed a new distribution box and ring for it all which is cool but the problem is now i have a distribution box for that. another large one for lights/sockets (and old kitchen now a spare),.. and anopther for econmy 7 storage heaters...

i think the lighting ccts are ok, but the sockets are not, they are the old coloured wire system and not a ring cct....

what i want to do is rewire the lot with new distribution boxes and get signed off,,,

Questions:

1- can someone from the councel come and sign it as current? am concerned becuase i know most sparks dont want to sign other peoples work., or how would i go about achieving this?

2- where the distribution boards are its a right mess, i mean i have supply in, then a double pole 6 way connector block, 2 large boards a further kitchen board and the meter,,, can all these go onto a single larger distribution box? or what would be the best advice here?

3- can someone point out the type is distribution box (s) required... storage heaters, sockets, lights. also exact type and grade of wires.

4- want to provide power to the garage, is 10mm armouded cable dug into ground ok then to a breaker box in garage ok,... also where exactly do i take this from in the house??


guys,, thanks again.
 
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richard1600 said:
hi all,,

basically have an old house and am aware that the wiring is not to 17th edt regs...
Click to expand...
So?


i think the lighting ccts are ok, but the sockets are not, they are the old coloured wire system and not a ring cct....
Click to expand...
Why do you think that either of those make the socket circuit(s) "not OK"?

The latter point is particularly alarming, given what you say you want to do, as it highlights your lack of knowledge, and consequent lack of necessary competence.


what i want to do is rewire the lot with new distribution boxes and get signed off
Click to expand...
  1. For a circuit to supply a <thing> (doesn't matter what), how would you go about deciding what cable and protective device to use?

  2. How do you calculate maximum demand and how can diversity be used?

  3. What are the 3 different types of domestic single-phase supplies provided in this country, how would you recognise them, and what differences do each make to the requirements for the rest of the installation, particularly any outdoor supplies?

  4. Can you correctly identify all components and connections of a circuit by method of testing or otherwise? In doing so can you identify or recognise anything wrong or dangerous with the circuit?

  5. Do you understand how the way in which you install cables affects how much current they can carry?

  6. What are the rules concerning cables concealed in walls, partitions and under floors?

  7. What are the rules for cables run outdoors, buried in the ground or overhead?

  8. Where cables need to be joined, how should this be done / not be done and in what circumstances are different methods acceptable?

  9. Can you identify extraneous conductive parts, and do you know the requirements for main and supplementary bonding of them?

  10. Which circuits should be RCD protected?

  11. How do you propose to isolate your supply so that you can connect up your new CU?

  12. Do you know what tests you would carry out on the installation - what sequence you'd do them in and at what point you would energise the installation, and for each test do you know what is being measured, why it is important, how you would carry out the test, and with what equipment, and what sort of results you would expect to get if everything was OK?


1- can someone from the councel come and sign it as current? am concerned becuase i know most sparks dont want to sign other peoples work., or how would i go about achieving this?
Click to expand...
//www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:part-p

Although to be honest you don't yet have anywhere near enough knowledge to be able to ensure that you comply with P1.


2- where the distribution boards are its a right mess, i mean i have supply in, then a double pole 6 way connector block, 2 large boards a further kitchen board and the meter,,, can all these go onto a single larger distribution box?
Click to expand...
Yes.


or what would be the best advice here?
Click to expand...
To get an electrician.


3- can someone point out the type is distribution box (s) required... storage heaters, sockets, lights. also exact type and grade of wires.
Click to expand...
See the questions above - if you want to take on this job then you have to make those decisions, and you have to be able to make them on the basis of a sound underpinning of knowledge and genuine understanding.

Rewiring-by-numbers is an extraordinarily bad idea.

These will get you started regarding the cable sizing:
 
love to get an electrician however, i am not a millionaire....

i didnt say the old wiring (Setup) was unsafe,, just if i want to sell the houe one day, would be benifiical to be current.....

i am not some idiot off the street deciding to guess what to do...

its a small house, with really not alot going on electrically speaking,,

i am an electronics technician and yes i know this is different, but belive me i could seriously getting technical about electricity in many forms,,,,

look,,,,, i understand your comments all i want to do realistically is remove old socket wiring and install 2 rings,, one up stairs and one down...

and tidy up what you see in the picture,,,
 
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But you will not be able to sell the house if you do the rewiring work yourself and it does not comply and/or does not have all of the required paperwork.

I suggest that you talk to a registered electrician and offer to do much of the grunt work for him. You will then be working as his apprentice under his guidance. He can then do the final fix and testing. Possibly then he will agree to sign the installation off and do the necessary notification.
 
thanks mate,,,,

far less patronising then the 1st comment left..

i fully understand the saftey aspects and the fact i am not an electrician....
will ring an electricain get him to have a look and advise...

just put me off coz the last one was £600 for a few sockets and the kitchen ring...

not only that he ruined walls and really was not very thoughtful to the house at all....
 
richard1600 said:
i didnt say the old wiring (Setup) was unsafe,,
Click to expand...
But you implied that you thought there was something wrong with a socket circuit not being a ring.


just if i want to sell the houe one day, would be benifiical to be current.....
Click to expand...
It would probably be beneficial to have a safe installation, and electrical and Building Regulations certificates too, and if you just dive in with your current level of knowledge you may not get any of those.


i am not some idiot off the street deciding to guess what to do...
Click to expand...
No, but "can someone point out the type is distribution box (s) required... storage heaters, sockets, lights. also exact type and grade of wires" - you must take responsibility for finding out how to work that out yourself. The cable sizing links above will give you the knowledge and tools you need to work out what sized cables to use.


its a small house, with really not alot going on electrically speaking,,
Click to expand...
It doesn't matter if it's 1 circuit or 100 - all of those questions I asked are relevant, and you have to be able to answer them all.


i am an electronics technician and yes i know this is different, but belive me i could seriously getting technical about electricity in many forms,,,,
Click to expand...
You shouldn't find it difficult to learn then.


look,,,,, i understand your comments all i want to do realistically is remove old socket wiring and install 2 rings,, one up stairs and one down...
Click to expand...
Why rings? What criteria have you considered when deciding if they are the most appropriate? Are 2 socket circuits enough? Should they both be of the same design? Is up/down the best way to comply with 314.1?


and tidy up what you see in the picture,,,
Click to expand...
It's not just a cosmetic exercise - there are electrical design and theoretical knowledge underpinnings needed, practical installation methods to consider, regulatory requirements to take account of, testing......
 
richard1600 said:
far less patronising then the 1st comment left..
Click to expand...
There was nothing patronising about the post I made. It may not have been what you wanted to read, and it may not have been the advice you thought you should get, but tough.

Those 12 questions were not an attempt to appear superior, they are all completely genuine, and they are all things that you should be able to answer if there's to be a safe and successful outcome of a rewire and CU change.

The observations I made about your current level of competence were not denigrating, they were recognitions of simple fact.
 
thanks for all the in-depth responses...

dont worry i am not going to 1 day walk into wickes and buy some cable and some plugs come home and just wire it up willy nilly..

the sparky who came and did the kitchen told me that the sockets are wired "radial" (think thats the word he used) not a massive problem just not to 17th edd.. he also mentioned that 1 of the sockets downstairs is wired (connected) to 1 upstairs..

he suggested what need to happen to make it all current,, and he said rip out old and install a ring for downstair and a ring for upstairs.
he said the storage heaters where fine wired as are...


atm i have 3 boxes, 2 of which are half empty as things have been removed. so i thought, ok, could i re-do the sockets with the correct cable and correct layout (ring) to make it current at the same time tidy the mess i have with all those boxes.



he told me nothing is dangerous or out of the ordinary,,, just i am worried if i come to sell will this be a big factor??

i fully appreciate my domestic ac electrical knowledge is really not there. as i said am not a sparky but given the right advice and abiding by regs i am happy to route wiring, wire up sockets etc. also to disconnect mains input to isolate the entire house so is safe.. also i wouldnt dream of leaving it without getting it all checked out...
 
Sadly, not only was your electrician expensive and unable to install wiring without ruining the walls, he was generally incompetent.

There is nothing wrong with radial circuits, not now, and not ever. In some ways they are better than rings.

There is no need to remove the old circuits and replace them just because they are radials.

There is no need to replace cables just because they are the old colours.

There's nothing wrong with one downstairs socket being on a different circuit (arguably it's a good thing) provided the CU is properly labelled.

There is no need to bring any existing installation up to the current regulations per se. (Although any new work should be to the 17th.)

You won't be able to present an electrician with a part-completed rewire and have him sign it off - if you do want to do some of the grunt work then do what TTC said - find your electrician and agree with him first what he is happy for you to do.

As ever, personal recommendations are always the best way to find a reputable tradesman, but if you're having to go ahead without much in the way of those, or references, don't put any store by registration itself - sadly it is possible to become registered with woefully inadequate qualifications and zero practical experience. You don't have to spend long here to see people cropping up who are registered and "qualified", but who are clearly seriously incompetent in reality and who should not be charging for their services.

It's your money and you have every right to ask prospective tradesmen what their qualifications are. Just being listed here is not a good enough guide. No genuinely experienced electrician, with the "full set" of C&G qualifications will mind you asking - in fact he will wish that everyone was like you.

I feel sorry for people who have been misled by training organisations and (shamefully) the Competent Person scheme organisers into thinking that a 5-day training course, a couple of trivial examples of their work and some basic understanding of how to use test equipment will make them an electrician, but not sorry enough to agree with them trying to sell their services to Joe Public.
 
ohh i see...

my main concern was really not that the house was going to blow up or anything like that.. more the fact if i was to sell it would be a major issue... ???? would it be?

also i do alot of vehicle rewiring, and i know full well its low voltage dc. and completely dif set of rules to home but if you enlarge that picture i posted on here,,, it makes for a really unpleasent sight, and like i say the 2 larger boxes half of each are empty as old things were removed etc..



at the moment have removed 2 walls in the house, and reboarded all ceilings and half the other walls, so if anything needed doing, i would want to do it now before i plaster.,.. but on your advice it would seem i really shouldnt touch what aint broke???

whilst am here asking silly questions,., is there any reason you may be able to advise why all upsatirs sockets are singles??? there is like 3 rooms upstairs and each room has 4 single sockets each ????
 
Was this a repo house? ("do not use" stickers)

Just wondered, the device hanging off the meter tail - is this a transmitter for an energy meter?
 
no,,, we got that sent through from our supplier,,,

its one of those monitor things that tells you how much your using an cost etc,..
 
richard1600 said:
my main concern was really not that the house was going to blow up or anything like that.. more the fact if i was to sell it would be a major issue... ???? would it be?
Click to expand...
Nope.

The mess under the stairs is not ideal but in reality is not as bad as it first appears, and a periodic inspection at the time would show that the wiring was sound.


also i do alot of vehicle rewiring, and i know full well its low voltage dc. and completely dif set of rules to home
Click to expand...
The IEC definitions of voltage bands are:
  • Extra Low Voltage: AC below 50V and DC below 120V
  • Low Voltage: 50 - 1000V AC or 120 - 1500V DC
  • Medium voltage: 1kV - 35kV
  • High voltage: 35kV - 230kV
  • Extra-high voltage: >230kV
This is not some pedantic technical point - if you start getting involved in doing your own electrical work, and start learning about regulations etc you'll come across references to "Low voltage", and it'll be no good you thinking that that means 12V...


but if you enlarge that picture i posted on here,,, it makes for a really unpleasent sight,
Click to expand...
It could be worse:

IMGP1270-1.jpg


:D


and like i say the 2 larger boxes half of each are empty as old things were removed etc..
Click to expand...
Why did the electrician you had install an additional CU if the others had space in them? Is that the one to the bottom left? What circuits are in it? If you can relocate them to an existing CU then you could maybe remove the RCD and stick a 50A breaker in there to supply the garage.

Are you keeping the storage heaters, and the off-peak supply? If so you'll need to keep 2 CUs anyway.

If not then having 2 makes it easy to split the installation across 2 RCDs, and all the spare ways can be used for new circuits as needs change. It's not as if you've got rubbish CUs either. Is the non-storage heater one a split-load, i.e. does it have an RCD part way along?

A bit of work to dress the cables better (particularly the tails), maybe some trunking to enclose the circuit cables and cover up that ragged hole in the ceiling and it'll look just fine.


at the moment have removed 2 walls in the house, and reboarded all ceilings and half the other walls, so if anything needed doing, i would want to do it now before i plaster.,.. but on your advice it would seem i really shouldnt touch what aint broke???
Click to expand...
No, don't, but get a periodic inspection done to confirm that nothing is broken.

However - if you're going to be there for some time then you might want to think about making changes for you rather than for selling - increased division of circuits, outside supplies etc. I favour putting all wiring in conduit for ease of future changes. Some think that a bit OTT, but if you specify metal conduit for switch drops, or BS 8436 cable it removes the need to have RCDs where you'd rather not.

Think hard about where to have sockets - it's difficult to have too many, and also about what circuits to have. The items on the list below won't all apply to you, but they are worth thinking about:
  • Upstairs sockets
  • Downstairs sockets
  • Kitchen sockets
  • Circuit for appliances
  • Cooker circuit
  • Non-RCD circuit for F/F
  • Non-RCD circuit for CH boiler
  • Dedicated circuit for hifi
  • Dedicated circuit for IT equipment
  • Upstairs lights
  • Downstairs lights
  • Immersion heater
  • Loft lights
  • Shower
  • Bathroom circuit
  • Alarms
  • Supply for outside lights
  • Supply for garden electrics
  • Supply for shed/garage
Plus any peculiarities brought about by your house layout & construction - e.g. in mine because of solid floors and where the socket circuits run, I have a radial just for a socket in the hall, the doorbell and the porch lights.

Unless you want to go to the expense of RCBOs throughout, the CU should have at least 3 sections, 2 on RCDs and one not into which you can install a mix of RCBOs and MCBs. Or you may find that the 2 you have will give you enough flexibility.

If you live somewhere where supplies are dodgy in the winter, have the lights, the boiler supply, and a socket in each room wired to a separate CU, or a separate section in a large one, that can be supplied by an emergency generator - lights, heating, TV and a kettle/microwave make life a lot more bearable.

Flood-wiring with Cat6 or Cat6a cable is worth thinking about.


whilst am here asking silly questions,., is there any reason you may be able to advise why all upsatirs sockets are singles??? there is like 3 rooms upstairs and each room has 4 single sockets each ????
Click to expand...
None that I can think of - feel free to replace then with twins.
 
Good God BAS! You don't half go on, sometimes.....


As I understand it, the O/P is concerned whether his property is saleable or not...

There's no Law and there's no power on Earth that will prevent the sale of a property to a buyer determined enough to have possession.

Trivial matters such as the lack of BC approval for past works can easily be overcome by having a survey, a PIR or a BC 'Regularisation' certificate.


Lucia.
 
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